Of course that person did something. Converting models takes time and effort, mapping models takes time and effort and adding materials takes time and effort. It's impossible just to import development parts, most of them need editing before they actually work or get even close to the current standards.If you want to be able to decide if a car is unlocked - do it yourself. Especially if all parts are unlocked, you have no excuse at all. Stop complaining about other modders, if you think downloading and assembling model parts is so simple, why don't you do it?

So, according to you, not a lot of people are modeling or putting parts together, am I right? Like, it requires time, experience, and so on. Then there's even less reason to leave stuff locked, since only a handful of people could possibly use it. It's as if someone was preventing you the access to the nearby park just because the city fears that possibly someone amongst the ten thousands of inahitants could ransack it.

You talk about "solving", so you believe it's an issue people like to decide themselves. Seriously, what's the problem? Somebody doesn't create a model at all - gain for the community: Absolutely nothing. Somebody creates a model and gives it to trustworthy friends who release an awesome (locked) car - gain for the community: A high quality vehicle model everybody can download and enjoy in their game. If somebody doesn't want to release something, it's that way.
 

I don't even understand the point of the discussion. Some consumers require mods to be unlocked, but what do they gain? Nothing, because they can't even mod. Most modders say everybody should decide for themselves.
Apart from "being better the community" I haven't seen many arguments against locking so far, and in IV it was for more likely for an unlocked model to get used without credits. That's not exactly good for the community, isn't it?

From there I'll just quote myself, it'll be easier:

Now. Let's be honest. I really -highly- doubt that majority of models released are made from scratch. They can be polished, but most of them are conversions of existing models from other games (i.e DSF CVPI, or the Charger you yourself released, which is from EA). So from there, you want to lock a model that you yourself ripped from another game, from another modeler who, unlike you, modeled the car (and most likely from scratch, him). Ironic, in my opinion. You're acting as if the model was yours in the first place, when it's actually not. You just modified an existing model.

Basically, that's where I would stand. You created a model entirely from scratch? Feel free to lock it, it's truly your model and your creation. You modified an existing model that you converted from another game or similar? Locking it is hypocritical, because you are appropriating yourself the work of another person, just with your own modifications on it. If anything, you should ask the original creator if -you- can lock it (aka EA or Ubisoft, from the examples I have mentioned earlier).

All is summarized there. Converting a car and polishing it might take time, but it still doesn't make it YOUR model. It's the property of the editor who edited the game you ported it from. Nothing more, nothing less. So if you actually decide to lock a model that got ported, you're locking something that is not even your own property, which makes no sense. Works for people simply putting things together too, they actually don't own anything, they just build. Imagine a house building company worker. He gets the materials from his company, and builds the house, but I doubt it makes the house his property.

Edited August 25, 201510 yr by Hystery

So, according to you, not a lot of people are modeling or putting parts together, am I right? Like, it requires time, experience, and so on. Then there's even less reason to leave stuff locked, since only a handful of people could possibly use it. It's as if someone was preventing you the access to the nearby park just because the city fears that possibly someone amongst the ten thousands of inahitants could ransack it.

Many people are doing it. But there're many people not even trying to do it either. Everybody can buy ZModeler and learn how to convert models. There're even complete step-by-step tutorials for complete conversions. Without knowledge of the programm you might run into model specific issues though. You'll need experience. A modder decided to start modding himself, he bought the tools and many people here started without having unlocked models or tons of tutorials. The community didn't give him modding experience, he got it himself. Why do you think he's obliged to give all of his work back to the community? Especially to a community that obviously doesn't even want to respect his own decisions.
I totally understand if you don't want to spend all that time and do it yourself. But instead trying to force modders to release everything unlocked just because other people are too lazy to do it themselves?

And if you keep using metaphors, do it correctly: Nobody is preventing access to the park - everybody is able to use it. But the city won't allow you to just start removing trees or building your own house in that park.
 

All is summarized there. Converting a car and polishing it might take time, but it still doesn't make it YOUR model. It's the property of the editor who edited the game you ported it from. Nothing more, nothing less. So if you actually decide to lock a model that got ported, you're locking something that is not even your own property, which makes no sense. Works for people simply putting things together too, they actually don't own anything, they just build. Imagine a house building company worker. He gets the materials from his company, and builds the house, but I doubt it makes the house his property.

If you want to download a ripped model from NFS or DSF, feel free to do so. They've been available on public websites for years without any game developer ever complaining. If you want to go further, and use a converted model, maybe even including many new models or textures, you can't just ignore the person that did these changes.
Nobody ever said he owns that model. By converting and editing it, he did contribute to it. Since you can't just lock the conversion of a car itself, the whole car is locked. He is not like a worker from a company that gets paid by the client. You need to stop comparing modding to companies, it does not work. There're no clients, you don't get paid.

If you prefer it, people could just stop releasing converted models completely. You won't have any advantage from that either. In fact, you complained about that as well earlier.
I said it before: If you believe people shouldn't lock converted cars, just convert it yourself and release it unlocked.

I don't even understand your problem right now. CVPIs, Impalas, Caprices, Explorers and Tauruses, after being converted from another game, have all been released unlocked. Most of those models may be converted to V as well. If it's a model somebody bought on some 3d site, sometimes redistribution is allowed only if the model can't be edited - or not at all.

Edited August 25, 201510 yr by Cj24

I don't even know why people who develop models are commenting on this matter. Most of the modders, including myself, would like a lock option. The ones who oppose need to stop trying to compare things and using metaphors because now they really aren't making sense anymore.

So, according to you, not a lot of people are modeling or putting parts together, am I right? Like, it requires time, experience, and so on. Then there's even less reason to leave stuff locked, since only a handful of people could possibly use it. It's as if someone was preventing you the access to the nearby park just because the city fears that possibly someone amongst the ten thousands of inahitants could ransack it.

From there I'll just quote myself, it'll be easier:

All is summarized there. Converting a car and polishing it might take time, but it still doesn't make it YOUR model. It's the property of the editor who edited the game you ported it from. Nothing more, nothing less. So if you actually decide to lock a model that got ported, you're locking something that is not even your own property, which makes no sense. Works for people simply putting things together too, they actually don't own anything, they just build. Imagine a house building company worker. He gets the materials from his company, and builds the house, but I doubt it makes the house his property.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Of course that person did something. Converting models takes time and effort, mapping models takes time and effort and adding materials takes time and effort. It's impossible just to import development parts, most of them need editing before they actually work or get even close to the current standards.If you want to be able to decide if a car is unlocked - do it yourself. Especially if all parts are unlocked, you have no excuse at all. Stop complaining about other modders, if you think downloading and assembling model parts is so simple, why don't you do it?
You believe unless you actually create a new polygon, you haven't actually created anything? You obviously never tried modding or modeling.

I never said that it's simple, in fact I'm pretty sure I said that I know it takes work. Since all of you like using metaphors that make no sense, here's one more. If you steal a car and make a bunch of changes on it, does that give you ownership rights to the car? Can you go and get that car registered in your name or trade it in at a dealership? No, you can't. The reason I say this doesn't make any sense, and the argument I know you will have, is pretty much the same as the argument against your metaphors: this is modding, not real life. But it still stands that you do not own the car. Now, people who buy models to convert are a whole different thing, and I haven't really thought much about my feelings on them. Really, though, this isn't much of a problem, since people like yourself do release converted models unlocked (which is why I didn't spend much time on it in my post). There are still always fights, though, about people using a model they shouldn't have access to. Simply releasing the model will stop that. 

 You talk about "solving", so you believe it's an issue people like to decide themselves. Seriously, what's the problem? Somebody doesn't create a model at all - gain for the community: Absolutely nothing. Somebody creates a model and gives it to trustworthy friends who release an awesome (locked) car - gain for the community: A high quality vehicle model everybody can download and enjoy in their game. If somebody doesn't want to release something, it's that way.

I say it's a problem because you are preventing new modders from entering the scene. I know the argument for this - they can learn to model themselves, or use the currently released dev parts. But learning to model is not simple. Not everyone has the time or patience to learn how to scratch model things. There are college degrees in this, so clearly it isn't something you can just pick up on. These people still want to create awesome mods, but they are limited to the few parts that are released unlocked, or to whatever crappy models they can try to make themselves. If every part ever made was released unlocked, there would be unlimited possibilities for car mods. Instead, those models stay private, and get used in a few different configurations. How is having unlimited things to choose from worse than only having one or two? Sure, it's a gain for the community when those privates models are used on one car, but isn't it a larger gain if it's used on 100 cars? Or 1000 cars? What's the loss of releasing the model unlocked? Someone might claim it as their own? Who cares? Most websites discourage that, and sanction/ban those people. Being an accounting graduate, I automatically weigh gains vs losses, and here the gains outweigh the losses in terms of releasing all your parts to the public. 

I'm guessing you missed the part where I said it is the right of the scratch modeler to make this decision, though. I don't have a problem with that. I just don't think it's the correct decision. 

I never said that it's simple, in fact I'm pretty sure I said that I know it takes work. Since all of you like using metaphors that make no sense, here's one more. If you steal a car and make a bunch of changes on it, does that give you ownership rights to the car? Can you go and get that car registered in your name or trade it in at a dealership? No, you can't. The reason I say this doesn't make any sense, and the argument I know you will have, is pretty much the same as the argument against your metaphors: this is modding, not real life.

What's your point? Metaphors are bad so you should totally use them yourself?
 

But it still stands that you do not own the car. Now, people who buy models to convert are a whole different thing, and I haven't really thought much about my feelings on them. Really, though, this isn't much of a problem, since people like yourself do release converted models unlocked (which is why I didn't spend much time on it in my post). There are still always fights, though, about people using a model they shouldn't have access to. Simply releasing the model will stop that.

I did agree to that before. Yet you say, just because legally somebody doesn't own a model, he should basicly sacrifice his own work? Creating a polygon isn't the only thing important for a car mod. You make it sound like converting and editing is no valuable work, at least not valuable enough to let the person who did that work decide who gets access to it. You won't get far by just naming a model taken straight out of another game police.wft.
A mod usually isn't something one person owns, especially in this community we usually have collaborations. The person who releases in the end doesn't just decide, everybody does. If people require all of their parts are released locked, the car will be locked. If somebody decides all of their parts need to be unlocked, it's that way.

As soon as you release a model, new fights will start as well. You need to make sure people give correct credits and care about permissions. You need to handle the competition since some people always try to be better. The whole community is full of fights. Considering the size of the GTA community, we actually have quite an acceptable atmosphere.
 

I say it's a problem because you are preventing new modders from entering the scene. I know the argument for this - they can learn to model themselves, or use the currently released dev parts. But learning to model is not simple. Not everyone has the time or patience to learn how to scratch model things. There are college degrees in this, so clearly it isn't something you can just pick up on. These people still want to create awesome mods, but they are limited to the few parts that are released unlocked, or to whatever crappy models they can try to make themselves. If every part ever made was released unlocked, there would be unlimited possibilities for car mods. Instead, those models stay private, and get used in a few different configurations. How is having unlimited things to choose from worse than only having one or two? Sure, it's a gain for the community when those privates models are used on one car, but isn't it a larger gain if it's used on 100 cars? Or 1000 cars? What's the loss of releasing the model unlocked? Someone might claim it as their own? Who cares? Most websites discourage that, and sanction/ban those people. Being an accounting graduate, I automatically weigh gains vs losses, and here the gains outweigh the losses in terms of releasing all your parts to the public.

People don't even need to model themselves. There're tons of models available here on LCPDFR or on one of the many other websites.
I think I do recognize the problem now, though: People want to create awesome models. It's very hard to create high quality work without understanding what you're doing. No matter how many unlocked parts there're available.

No matter how much gain you might see, many modders don't believe they benefit from people using their models. I like to see people using my parts, even though I often look at the finished car and don't understand why people actually want to use that. I'd rather have 10 quality models instead of 1000 cars that look like they've been put together in two minutes, in the end it's only one car you'll use in your game.
Many modders don't want to release just another model people download without even bothering to look at the author. They don't want their name in the credits of a car they don't like. Many people don't even manage to keep the original quality of a development part. They forget textures, remove LODs or ruin the mapping. I know many modders who rather want to see their model being used by only few people, but by people that actually appreciate it and know how to create a proper high quality car.
 

I'm guessing you missed the part where I said it is the right of the scratch modeler to make this decision, though. I don't have a problem with that. I just don't think it's the correct decision.

I didn't miss that, I just didn't address it. Obviously, I agree with that. Apart from that though, it rarely affects me personally. We have so many unlocked models available that I usually don't need to model anything from scratch. It has been almost a year since I modeled something. I usually convert models or simply edit them until I'm satisfied.

I've tried to stay out of this as much as I could. But I really don't get why there are arguments going back and forth here. I really could not care less if a model was locked or not, really. I mean, seriously, who cares?!

It doesn't make any difference to a consumer whether a vehicle is locked or not. I agree (to an extent) that it can restrict new modellers from having a high quality model to learn from. But I really don't get the "Us VS Them" mentality here. We're supposed to be one community, not one small "elite" group, and then "everyone else".

I don't mind if a modeller wants to protect his work. In fact, being a script developer, I completely understand it. I don't necessarily agree that ripping a model from another game makes it "yours", but, I digress. The thing that I have a problem with is when a modeller releases a WIP gallery image, and then says "Oh by the way, this model is never going to be released." Well then, why in the hell did you even tell us about it? To inflate your ego? If you're waiting on a so-called "locking" feature, well...its not against the rules to release said screenshot (as opposed to posting a picture of something that you have no intention of ever releasing), but why not wait, then? If I was a 3D modeller, and I had vehicles in the works, but I wanted to lock them, personally, I would keep quiet on the matter. It just avoids the confrontations altogether. No one knows you have anything in progress, and then when a locking feature arrives, suddenly, you're a hero because you just released 3 different vehicles.

I have not kept myself updated on the whole "lock feature" situation. But even if Oleg implements some sort of feature in Zmodeler that prevents re-importing a model, I hope that all modellers know that it would not be a 100% guarantee. People have been getting past licensing/activation locks in software for years, including software by Microsoft and Adobe. So your little Zmodeler lock...don't expect it to stop everyone, is all I am saying. Like, if a YFT filter for say, 3DS MAX or whatever comes along...it may or may not look for Zmodeler's lock flag, right?

But all that aside, if you want to lock your models, sure, be my guest. But there are just two things that I have a problem with. Firstly, what if this "lock" feature never comes? Hypothetically, if there is absolutely no way to lock your models, are you just never going to release them? Because that would definitely "deprive" the community, as others have been talking about.

And secondly...if you're going to lock models, that shouldn't mean that new modellers should never get to use your work in some fashion. Personally, I think that releasing a locked model and denying permission to use it when anyone asks, is wrong. If you've got custom parts on there, I can understand the desire to have it locked. But when someone asks you, "Can I use your vehicle as a starting point to work with?" and offers to credit you, don't say no. Maybe give them an unlocked version of the car with no lightbar or other police parts on it? I am not saying that there should be a "rule" that "veteran modellers have to help out new modellers", but we should avoid having an "elite" group of modellers that have access to all the good vehicle models.

I am just a "script dev" to most of you. But I do have some "modelling" experience, if you can call it that. I was one of those "glue and stick" guys who would ask an experienced modeller for permission to use their vehicle as a base, and then take a publicly available lightbar, create the dummies for the lights, and presto, I'd have my own "vehicle". For those who are old enough to remember Need for Speed Hot Pursuit (the old one, Need for Speed III, not the new one) and NFS High Stakes, remember CarCAD? Those were the days. I also used to play around a little with GTA:SA models, just for myself. I'd take an unlocked DFF, and see what I could change around with it. But I never actually released anything.

So I do know, and can appreciate the effort it takes to model a vehicle. I'm not trying to take sides here, in fact, I'm trying to question the need to even take sides!

Whether a vehicle is locked or not, doesn't really affect anyone much. But at the same time, modellers should still be willing to release some things unlocked, or at least, provide unlocked versions of higher quality models (with custom parts removed, if desired) when a new modeller asks permission to use a vehicle.

The issue is not whether models should be locked or not. That should not be debated at all here.

The real issue is, we need to avoid creating an "elite" group of people who have access to a greater selection of resources. I don't remember what the sites were called, but I remember back in the days of NFS High Stakes, I could go into the "Development Resources" section of the downloads area, and there were subsections in there. One for vehicle models, where you could find unlocked versions of CVPI's, Caprices and god knows what else. It may not have been the best CVPI model, but it was definitely decent. And if you wanted to use the best locked CVPI model out there made by "Bob Smith", you just ask Bob, and most of the time, he was more than willing to help!

You could take a vehicle, then you could take a lightbar, then you could find rambars, laptops, prisoner cages, and all sorts of different parts. You take all those parts, you take CarCAD or Zmodeler, you put them together, and, presto, as a new modeler, you just made your first car!

And for those modellers who scratch-make a lightbar, and don't want to (understandably so) release it unlocked to the public, maybe there should be a stickied thread in the Modding section. This thread would have links or screenshots of the various vehicle models, lightbars, and other parts out there that are available:

This CVPI was made by Modder A, it is unlocked, and can be downloaded here.
This CVPI was made by Modder B. It is locked, but he has indicated that anyone who wishes to use it can send him a PM.
This lightbar was made by Modder C. It is locked, but he has indicated that anyone who wishes to use it can send him a PM.

(and so on)

THOSE are the days that I miss. Where anyone who wanted to learn how to put a vehicle together had unlimited resources to do so.
 

TL;DR

Modellers - Lock your stuff if you want, but remember it ain't always going to stop every ripper out there. Oh, and if you're never going to release something to the public, just never let us know it exists. And please, help out the new guys, will ya? If someone asks to use your locked model, don't just keep it to yourself.

Consumers and new modellers - It won't make a difference whether a model is locked or not. It will still run in your game. And if you'd like to use a lightbar or a vehicle that is locked, just ask. Veteran modellers are people too.

Why can't we be friends...

Edited August 25, 201510 yr by Stealth22

1000% percent agree with Stealth. I have nothing more to say.

Wait, so locking only takes a few minutes to bypass?

If so, what's the point?

Wait, so locking only takes a few minutes to bypass?

If so, what's the point?

For IV, locking was pretty safe, since there was no tool apart from ZModeler. If somebody managed to rip a model he always has to convert it again. As far as I've been told, the ripping tools often crashed, there were models that simply didn't work properly.
In SA you had both ZModeler and 3ds Max. I think without further tools you couldn't even import cars created with one of those into the other one. There was an unlocker for ZModeler, however most people, out of respect for the the modders decision, would never use such a tool.

So no, it does not take just a few minutes. But there's a difference between saying people may not edit this and actually implementing measures to prevent editing. Some people don't care about either one, you have no way to stop those. But since all GTA websites have the possibility to report, there're ways to have it removed. However, you will stop those people who don't even bother to look at the readme. They'll try to import it, see it's locked, and go download another model.

Edited August 26, 201510 yr by Cj24

however most people, out of respect of the the modders decision, would never use such a tool.

If only it could be like this now.

    One of the LCPDFR's core ToS is "Respect" and for good reason.  You cannot build a strong, healthy, happy community without having community members displaying mutual respect for one another.  Depending on how long you've been in the community you'll hear this hot topic of "modder rights" come up over and over again.  At it's core is this idea of "Respect".  When we look past the distracting side discussions, (like copyright/trademark issues that none of these game studios pursue), we see a small group of ambitious, energetic, and very generous individuals, that are willing to invest their own time and energy into creating something new for the games we all enjoy (like the GTA series).  These individuals will release their content (sometimes in "locked" form, sometimes it's "unlocked" for the public).  They will include a credits file (often overlooked by the end user) and those authors who have contributed to the work in the final release are acknowledged by name.  All of those authors cited in the credits file have been contacted for proper permissions and have given their consent through direct contact, or have done so in a text file included with the original authors creation.  

Side note:  If a gaming studio ever directly contacted us, and requested us to remove any content using their work, we would gladly comply.  We're not profiting from their work.  We're not competing with their companies business interests.  So I believe it would be a fair assessment to believe that these gaming studio's are well aware that their content is being used for various mods in a lot of different games (not just the GTA series), and do not particularly care enough to warrant some kind of legal action.  Maybe if we were making thousands of dollars it would catch someone's attention, but that's simply not the case in our community.  

    So the original authors have given their permission to use their work, and have been properly cited as a contributing author to the final released modification.  Anyone not complying with these basic steps are contacted directly and asked to A) contact the original author (in the case of permissions) or B) properly credit who made what for their release.  Anyone who refuses to comply with these simple requirements are punished by having the file removed, and possibly having their account suspended or banned.  This is exactly how things are suppose to work in a community that shows respect for each other.  

    Why is it so important to get permissions and/or credit properly?  It goes back to the original point of having respect for one another.  You're acknowledging that someone else has invested time and energy into creating something new.  Even in cases where an individual has taken an existing model from another game, their is significant time and energy invested in editing the model to meet the requirements of GTA SA/IV/V.  Parts are needed, proper LOD's created, materials assigned, etc.  A direct example of this would be vehicle doors.  Some video games do not have vehicle doors that open in game and thus save geometry by deleting the edges of the door that are unseen in their game.  All of this geometry needs to be added and fixed for the GTA series, as this area is displayed in game.  Often times a base vehicle model is older or different from a police model, and thus require all of those edits.  The whole time process can vary dramatically (vehicle to vehicle, modder experience, etc.), but regardless their is always a significant amount of time and energy being invested by that individual.  When we ask permission from an author to use something that they've worked on, we're recognizing that significant investment of time and energy and we're respecting their time and energy contributions.  Anyone who doesn't, is showing a tremendous amount of disrespect for this individual by minimizing the value of that individuals personal contributions.  You're basically saying, "I don't care about the amount of hours you've spent working on your mod, and I don't care about the energy you've invested in the project.  It's all insignificant.".  That's really a terrible thing to say to someone don't you think?  They've just spent time that they'll never get back and an enormous amount of energy, not to mention a significant amount of passionate devotion to their project to finish it, and you've minimized those contributions by saying that they're insignificant.  That's not exactly the stuff we build a healthy, harmonious community on (something to think about).

    This is a really important concept that anyone not understanding what all the fuss is about needs to understand.   Believe me I understand your confusion.  I never understood it myself until I actually started modeling, and editing these models and realized that there is a tremendous amount of time and effort involved, which completely changed my mind on the subject.  At that significant point in time, I realized it should completely be up to the individual authors to determine how (and by whom) their work should be used.  Modders rights, are basic rights that respect the individual authors time and energy contributions by asking for and getting their permissions to use their work and properly crediting them for that work.  The facts are these models aren't hidden away on the internet.  The models themselves and the techniques to convert them for the GTA series are available for anyone willing to invest the time and energy into a similar project.  Important note: Most modders are more then willing to answer modding related questions and give you constructive feedback on your work to help you improve your work.

    Everyone in this discussion wants the same thing.  A friendly place, where people treat each other fairly and with mutual respect.  A place to be able to share your ideas, and freely share your content with others, without a healthy fear people will take advantage of your generosity and use your content without proper permissions.  We all want access to play these amazing modifications in our own game.  We all want to see the community expand, and we all want to see more people willing to get their hands dirty and contribute themselves (this is exactly how we get more mods for the game).  We (modders) are not the enemy here, we're just asking the community to respect our time and energy contributions by asking before using our content, and to properly credit us when we do give permissions.  If you're frustrated by this, then do what I did 4 years ago, and start learning everything you can about modding, and start releasing your own content to the public (then you'll understand our perspective better). This is about building a better community and this is exactly how we start to achieve that goal.

 

   [snip]

Good, so we're all in agreement then. 

By the way, on a somewhat related note, I have a couple questions for modellers:

- What is exactly going on with the locking ability? Does Oleg plan to add a feature to Zmodeler at all? Or are there any other efforts underway for this?

- Does anyone have anything they could share in regards to the progress on their models?

- If Zmodeler is not going to have any sort of locking feature, and there's no alternative, are most modellers prepared to release vehicles unlocked?

 

Good, so we're all in agreement then. 

By the way, on a somewhat related note, I have a couple questions for modellers:

- What is exactly going on with the locking ability? Does Oleg plan to add a feature to Zmodeler at all? Or are there any other efforts underway for this?

- Does anyone have anything they could share in regards to the progress on their models?

- If Zmodeler is not going to have any sort of locking feature, and there's no alternative, are most modellers prepared to release vehicles unlocked?

 

If I were you, I would re read through the topic. Currently there is no locking for GTA V models and a lot of modders have submitted their input and would appreciate if there was a lock plugin. People have managed to convert cars to GTA V, but there's lots of bugs such as unbreakable glass, no collisions, etc. A lot of people are trying to fix this problem. I don't believe that people are going to bother releasing their vehicles unlocked because releasing vehicles isn't required, although lots of people would enjoy it. As stated by many people including myself, it would be a lot better to have the lock feature so those who want to release their vehicles unlocked can, and those who want it locked can keep it locked. There have been many misinterpretations over this whole thing such as people "clammering for credit" (whatever that's supposed to mean), and it's not all about credit, but people not wanting to have their vehicles edited and stay the way they were for the intended purpose. A lock feature would be a win-win situation, because there always will be somebody releasing something unlocked for others to work with.

No matter how much gain you might see, many modders don't believe they benefit from people using their models. I like to see people using my parts, even though I often look at the finished car and don't understand why people actually want to use that. I'd rather have 10 quality models instead of 1000 cars that look like they've been put together in two minutes, in the end it's only one car you'll use in your game.

Many modders don't want to release just another model people download without even bothering to look at the author. They don't want their name in the credits of a car they don't like. Many people don't even manage to keep the original quality of a development part. They forget textures, remove LODs or ruin the mapping. I know many modders who rather want to see their model being used by only few people, but by people that actually appreciate it and know how to create a proper high quality car.

This is honestly one of the most backward beliefs that someone around here can have.  Sure, I cringe a bit when I see a video of LSPDFR where the person playing hasn't read the guides and has absolutely no idea what they're doing, but it isn't exactly something to lose sleep over.  Attitudes like this are the reason that many people think modders are just on one big ego trip.

This is honestly one of the most backward beliefs that someone around here can have.  Sure, I cringe a bit when I see a video of LSPDFR where the person playing hasn't read the guides and has absolutely no idea what they're doing, but it isn't exactly something to lose sleep over.  Attitudes like this are the reason that many people think modders are just on one big ego trip.

Many modders don't just trust anybody, and I can understand why. They want to make sure a person is actually trustworthy if they give him access to their work. But I don't understand why that has to be bad. Why is it egoistical to release a mod "only" in a locked form? It's already more than anybody in this community is obliged to. If a modder never shows a mod, nobody even knows it exists. In that case he'd be considered less selfish than somebody who does release a mod, just not unlocked? That makes no sense to me.

Many modders don't just trust anybody, and I can understand why. They want to make sure a person is actually trustworthy if they give him access to their work. But I don't understand why that has to be bad. Why is it egoistical to release a mod "only" in a locked form? It's already more than anybody in this community is obliged to. If a modder never shows a mod, nobody even knows it exists. In that case he'd be considered less selfish than somebody who does release a mod, just not unlocked? That makes no sense to me.

I don't think that was the point anyone was making though.  The thing about never showing a mod was in relation to modders teasing people with stuff they're never going to release.

It seems most don't really care about the locking stuff anyway.  Locked or unlocked, the majority of people don't mind - that was the choice that the person exporting from ZModeler 2 was able to make.  This isn't an option now, and I think most people are just disappointed by the attitude of certain modders who have pledged never to release unlocked work because of this.  It seems more spiteful than anything else - people that make ped model, texture, audio, script and data file modifications have been releasing their work 'unlocked' for years now.

I don't think that was the point anyone was making though.  The thing about never showing a mod was in relation to modders teasing people with stuff they're never going to release.

It seems most don't really care about the locking stuff anyway.  Locked or unlocked, the majority of people don't mind - that was the choice that the person exporting from ZModeler 2 was able to make.  This isn't an option now, and I think most people are just disappointed by the attitude of certain modders who have pledged never to release unlocked work because of this.  It seems more spiteful than anything else - people that make ped model, texture, audio, script and data file modifications have been releasing their work 'unlocked' for years now.

It's the point I am making. Usually, people don't even know the reasons why a mod wasn't released unlocked, and believe me, in many cases it's not the decision of the person releasing the car. However, the person releasing a car is considered selfish, yet another person, who created a car and is not going to release it, is not. People don't know it was created, and people don't know why another car is locked.
I want people to understand that calling modders selfish because a model isn't unlocked won't change the fact that the model is locked. Instead, modders are going to withdraw from the community, either by not releasing models or by just giving them to friends. I've been talking to many different modders, and right now, many feel like they're not accepted here on LCPDFR.com at all.

It's a good thing many modders don't care about locking. But as long as some do, people should respect that choice instead of acting like locked models completely ruin the community. Like probably every other modder I'd also wish I had access to every model ever created, but unfortunately that's just impossible. Trying to put pressure on modders isn't going to change that, it's even more likely that that's just going to chase them away from releasing at all.
Everything else being unlocked is not exactly true. OpenFormats supported locking (in case people don't know, it's used for ped models) and, as LMS mentioned earlier, it's always possible to create obstacles to prevent people from editing a script mod.

Edited August 26, 201510 yr by Cj24

It's the point I am making. Usually, people don't even know the reasons why a mod wasn't released unlocked, and believe me, in many cases it's not the decision of the person releasing the car. However, the person releasing a car is considered selfish, yet another person, who created a car and is not going to release it, is not. People don't know it was created, and people don't know why another car is locked.
I want people to understand that calling modders selfish because a model isn't unlocked won't change the fact that the model is locked. Instead, modders are going to withdraw from the community, either by not releasing models or by just giving them to friends. I've been talking to many different modders, and right now, many feel like they're not accepted here on LCPDFR.com at all.

It's a good thing many modders don't care about locking. But as long as some do, people should respect that choice instead of acting like locked models completely ruin the community. Like probably every other modder I'd also wish I had access to every model ever created, but unfortunately that's just impossible. Trying to put pressure on modders isn't going to change that, it's even more likely that that's just going to chase them away from releasing at all.
Everything else being unlocked is not exactly true. OpenFormats supported locking (in case people don't know, it's used for ped models) and, as LMS mentioned earlier, it's always possible to create obstacles to prevent people from editing a script mod.

Well, I'd argue that the reason a very small number of modders don't feel that they are welcome on LCPDFR is because we've refused to tolerate the ridiculous behaviours that this minority have displayed.  As such, these people have gone on to make their own websites where they can act as they wish, and that's fine.  There's been a long, documented history of a very small number of modders acting in a highly inappropriate way, and I'm sure we can both remember the silly things that some of the people you're referring to did.

As far as others are concerned, there really should be no reason for anyone who acts responsibly and conducts themselves in a mature manner to feel as though they're not accepted here.  If the problem is model locking, to be absolutely clear, we agree with the sentiment expressed by Stealth above - we think it would be better if more people released more things unlocked, and we'll continue to encourage this, but we won't try to force it, nor will we actively campaign against model locking or anything like that.

And yes, I'd actually argue that it was a shame that OpenFormats had model locking.  From my experiences with editing ped models for San Andreas, people there were really quite good at sharing their work and giving credit where it was due.  It was the accepted way of doing things, and it was a win-win for all involved quite frankly.  Perhaps one of the problems here is people have grown too used to model locking and are simply unwilling to give unlocked models a shot?  It certainly wasn't as common in San Andreas as it was in GTA IV. 

Well, I'd argue that the reason a very small number of modders don't feel that they are welcome on LCPDFR is because we've refused to tolerate the ridiculous behaviours that this minority have displayed.  As such, these people have gone on to make their own websites where they can act as they wish, and that's fine.  There's been a long, documented history of a very small number of modders acting in a highly inappropriate way, and I'm sure we can both remember the silly things that some of the people you're referring to did.

I can imagine who you're talking about, but no, they're not the ones I have in mind. I'm talking about people who are still releasing here. Honestly, would you be surprised if even more modders left LCPDFR.com now? People post a picture of a converted CVPI and get 3 pages of discussion why it's not going to be unlocked, although the author didn't even say anything about that. Then you get a thread like this, people who don't mod themselves are trying to tell you what to do with your mods, or even worse, people who don't mod but still actually earn money with mods. That's not a healthy atmosphere, probably causing even more modders to release on other websites with different users.

And yes, I'd actually argue that it was a shame that OpenFormats had model locking.  From my experiences with editing ped models for San Andreas, people there were really quite good at sharing their work and giving credit where it was due.  It was the accepted way of doing things, and it was a win-win for all involved quite frankly.  Perhaps one of the problems here is people have grown too used to model locking and are simply unwilling to give unlocked models a shot?  It certainly wasn't as common in San Andreas as it was in GTA IV. 

I guess you're talking about a different San Andreas, then. When I started modding for IV, many of my skins were suddenly used in SA as well and the authors refused to credit at all. It was very common just to convert other models to SA without credits and many people then converted them back to IV, still without credits. Honestly, without that experience with SA, many modders probably wouldn't have locked their models in IV.
We don't have just a few modding websites we had around the time of IV's release. Currently, there's no clear view on all mods released. If somebody doesn't want to credit, he's just releasing on some other website. Most major websites let you report mods, but not at all. You can't do anything about it, apart from preventing it, as far as possible.

If the problem is model locking, to be absolutely clear, we agree with the sentiment expressed by Stealth above - we think it would be better if more people released more things unlocked, and we'll continue to encourage this, but we won't try to force it, nor will we actively campaign against model locking or anything like that.

It's good we finally have a clear statement about this.

As a person who can't model, can't make skins, or can't code (or at least can't code anything that works) I am the useless part of the community. However, as a mod consumer, I just don't understand why there's a desire to force modders to give their stuff unlocked. I used plenty of mods, including Cj24's Enforcer, Yard1's LCPD pack, Ekalb's cruisers, and they all were unlocked "to encourage modelling", and I think that this is good for the community. But if I was a modder and others demanded from me to either release everything as they say or get the hell out I would take the second option and stop releasing stuff at all, both locked and unlocked. It just looks rude to me and it doesn't contribute to good relations in the very same community. All in all, I'm really glad the Community Team took the approach described by Sam above: to encourage unlocked models and to accept the locked ones. 

Edited August 28, 201510 yr by Hastings