4 hours ago, The Loot said:

Yes.

Well, you should open your fucking eyes, because it's rampant. But you have an agenda to protect. 

Oops, what did I find?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

Well, now you're talking nonsense, cherry picking information, projecting your own need to protect and agenda, and being rude. And the best you could do is two videos of people chanting, out of thousands of protests? That's the end of our conversation, have a good day.

2 hours ago, unr3al said:

I think we need to distinguish between people who actually are registered members of BLM who make donations and attend meetings; actual BLM people, and people who support the movement and use the hash tag or the name itself to excuse whatever feelings they have or actions they want to take, regardless of whether these things are actually bigoted or violent in nature themselves or not. That's the problem with this movement.

People on social media love using #blacklivesmatter. The vast majority of them are not actual card-carrying members of that group, and I'd wager the same could be said about our shooters in Dallas. Nevertheless, things have gotten out of control in the media and on the streets, and BLM has a hand in it whether the founders intended it after Trayvon got killed or not.

BLM does not have membership, no one at the rallies is a member. People just come together and unite under a common cause. No one carries membership cards. Within that group there are many different kinds of people. The vast majority are peaceful protesters. Then there are intellectuals, preachers, even former cops. Of course there some that cause trouble, but why should that be all that we focus on, and never talk about the good? It is fact that some people at BLM protests cause trouble. It is fact that some people take BLM protests too far. But if they don't have membership, it is unfair to say that that represents the movement as a whole. You have to stop at those two facts there.

People are pissed off, and can you honestly blame them? Society has basically told them that their lives don't matter. It's not the fault of white people, it's not the fault of all cops. Talk to any intellectual at a BLM protest and they'll tell you that. It's society. If you don't understand WHY they're in the streets, of course it would be hard to have a fair understanding of them. Many people here don't, they still don't get it. All I'm saying is to understand their message and appreciate the fact that they've been overwhelmingly peaceful. Not smear them as something they're not because of some people that cause members.

Edited July 9, 20169 yr by Riley24

And yet I was still a more accurate representation than any of the pet causes BLM has taken on since it's inception.

Also, you talk about society not caring? How about them not caring? DO YOU FUCKING EVEN PAY ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT THE BLACK COMMUNITY MASSACRES ITSELF WITHOUT ANY NEED FOR OUTSIDE HELP? If they truly even cared about "Black Lives", they'd focus on something that kills FORTY TIMES more than cops do (at an almost infinitely higher rate of "unjustifiability"). Society-at-large isn't the problem.

Selfish victim-hood, self-loathing guilt, or bottomless ignorance: I honestly cannot tell what your major malfunction is.

7 hours ago, Riley24 said:

Demanding police reform is not anti-police. Vast majority of BLM are somber and peaceful, like the one in Dallas was prior to the attack. Don't forget that.

We don't have to get into the gun debate because (1): that's for another thread, and (2): We're in full agreement, which is a breath of fresh air

I think that's quite a blanket statement which doesn't quite convey the observable reality.  By all means, the protest in Dallas looked like it was non-violent before the shootings, but I don't think that detracts from the general mood of these protests, which is undoubtedly a demonstration against the police.  Having said that, Dallas PD had posted pictures of their officers and protesters posing together for pictures and such during the protests, so there's clear evidence to say this isn't something that applies to everyone.  Still, there's nothing particularlly somber about these protests - that's the sort of mood that you would expect at a funeral, not a lively march through the middle of a financial centre.

The sad thing here though is that a lot of officers have died, been seriously injured or otherwise affected because of their commitment to supporting the right of these people to protest against them, or at least the institution that they are part of.  Even worse, this isn't something that's going to change any time soon.  

Simply put, as each officer-involved shooting involving a black suspect happened, more and more people became emotionally attached to the argument against the police.  As such, you've seen huge movements like BLM form.  When people become so emotionally attached to a particular cause, all rational thought is lost.  There's no consideration of right or wrongs, and there's no appetite for fact.  For these people, each incident, regardless of the facts, is a further provocation against them and a further justification of their beliefs.  It's what keeps them going, and it's what ignites their calls for action, and in some cases, violence.

Concerningly enough, this incidents marks a clear turning point in the overall picture.  The law enforcement community has now become victim to such a devastating loss, and with this loss, the risk of similar emotional detachment grows.    Indeed, there's a number of people in the Republican party, presumingly describing themselves as pro law enforcement, who are somehow finding the justification to blame Obama for this.  One went as far as posting a provocative message which effectively declared war against him and against the BLM movement.  Step back for a moment, and you can soon appreciate the similarity of reactions here.  When a black man is shot down by the police, there's a furore of outrage from one side against the other.  People start blaming the police, they blame the government, they blame the system.  Similarly, in this case, we've got people blaming the protesters, we've got people blaming the government, and we've got people blaming the system.  Whether this is the people calling for martial law in this thread, or the politicians declaring war on the president, you've seen this today.  

It won't change though, and the causes of problems like this extend far from anything to do with law enforcement.  Ultimately, all things like this result in are an escalation - the only thing that will change is that more people will passionately support law enforcement and position themselves on one side.  Similarly, with each person shot by the police, you'll see a surge in support for those who protest against law enforcement, and those people positioning themselves to the other side.  As the number of people united against a particular cause grows, that's good news for them.  Let it be known though, it's bad news for the rest of us.  

Instead of making the tragic mistake of embracing the culture of blame, as tempting as it is, let us instead stand behind the fallen officers in Dallas, unite behind their belief in justice, and hold accountable those who disrupt this, be they officers or not.  After all, if we don't stand for justice, then just what do we stand for?

47 minutes ago, Sam said:

I think that's quite a blanket statement which doesn't quite convey the observable reality.  By all means, the protest in Dallas looked like it was non-violent before the shootings, but I don't think that detracts from the general mood of these protests, which is undoubtedly a demonstration against the police.  Having said that, Dallas PD had posted pictures of their officers and protesters posing together for pictures and such during the protests, so there's clear evidence to say this isn't something that applies to everyone.  Still, there's nothing particularlly somber about these protests - that's the sort of mood that you would expect at a funeral, not a lively march through the middle of a financial centre.

It depends on the protest, sure. Some are somber, some have music, some are uplifting, some are angry. Most post-shooting protests are a mix of somber and anger. Grieving and frustration. Those usually only make the news for the coverage of the family members tearful statements. The media loves its tragedy porn.

47 minutes ago, Sam said:

The sad thing here though is that a lot of officers have died, been seriously injured or otherwise affected because of their commitment to supporting the right of these people to protest against them, or at least the institution that they are part of.  Even worse, this isn't something that's going to change any time soon.  

Simply put, as each officer-involved shooting involving a black suspect happened, more and more people became emotionally attached to the argument against the police.  As such, you've seen huge movements like BLM form.  When people become so emotionally attached to a particular cause, all rational thought is lost.  There's no consideration of right or wrongs, and there's no appetite for fact.  For these people, each incident, regardless of the facts, is a further provocation against them and a further justification of their beliefs.  It's what keeps them going, and it's what ignites their calls for action, and in some cases, violence.

They're pissed off, can you blame them? I would be too if there was a 1/3 chance of me going to jail in my life time, or if I was shot or arrested at higher rates for the same crimes. Instead of being mad that they're mad, why don't we focus on fixing what they're mad about? There's this weird need for damage control, and helping the police save face instead of fixing the problems that are being protested. You say "regardless of the facts" as if the facts aren't on their side. They're not protesting over nothing. its not all a big misunderstanding. There are proven disadvantages and disparities for black people in our justice system. Talking about it doesn't make it exist, it exists regardless.

47 minutes ago, Sam said:

Concerningly enough, this incidents marks a clear turning point in the overall picture.  The law enforcement community has now become victim to such a devastating loss, and with this loss, the risk of similar emotional detachment grows.    Indeed, there's a number of people in the Republican party, presumingly describing themselves as pro law enforcement, who are somehow finding the justification to blame Obama for this.  One went as far as posting a provocative message which effectively declared war against him and against the BLM movement.  Step back for a moment, and you can soon appreciate the similarity of reactions here.  When a black man is shot down by the police, there's a furore of outrage from one side against the other.  People start blaming the police, they blame the government, they blame the system.  Similarly, in this case, we've got people blaming the protesters, we've got people blaming the government, and we've got people blaming the system.  Whether this is the people calling for martial law in this thread, or the politicians declaring war on the president, you've seen this today.  

Police killed over 100 unarmed black people across the country in 2015, which is 5x the rate of whites. (Source) We absolutely need to mourn the devastating loss of any officer killed, but can we also recognize that startling statistic? It feels like even mentioning those statistics is met with accusations of being "anti-police". Those officers in Dallas were killed at a protest over those statistics. Those statistics aren't annulled because of the bloodshed, its not suddenly irrelevant. It is not pro-police or anti-police, it is anti-police brutality/injustice and "lets stop having this conversation". I've been accused of faking grief of fallen officers simply because I don't defend every officer in the news.

More than a problem of law enforcement, I think its a problem of culture. We've taught ourselves to fear black people, under some false idea that they're more dangerous than other people. We've ingrained that idea into our culture. Someone much smarter than me once compared race to butterflies and spiders. Both are in your house, and both are bugs. Which one do you hit with a shoe? The one you've been taught to fear. Its all about the subconscious biases that we've all had ingrained in us. A lot of people are uncomfortable talking about that, so they instead deny deny deny, and turn it into pro-police vs. anti-police. That's not the way the conversation started.

47 minutes ago, Sam said:

It won't change though, and the causes of problems like this extend far from anything to do with law enforcement.  Ultimately, all things like this result in are an escalation - the only thing that will change is that more people will passionately support law enforcement and position themselves on one side.  Similarly, with each person shot by the police, you'll see a surge in support for those who protest against law enforcement, and those people positioning themselves to the other side.  As the number of people united against a particular cause grows, that's good news for them.  Let it be known though, it's bad news for the rest of us.  

Instead of making the tragic mistake of embracing the culture of blame, as tempting as it is, let us instead stand behind the fallen officers in Dallas, unite behind their belief in justice, and hold accountable those who disrupt this, be they officers or not.  After all, if we don't stand for justice, then just what do we stand for?

I'm afraid you're right in that it won't change. You're right in that people are "picking teams", but both sides are to blame for that. We need more police officers to speak out against brutality and racism, and more cops asking for reform. Right now, cops that do so are treated as traitors by fellow officers. At the same time we need to make sure that lines of communication exist between activists and the police, and that there is some level of understanding within the community. Look at Snoop Dogg's peace march and meeting with the LAPD, its inspirational. (Source). And that "coming together" was also happening in Dallas before the attack. One of the major grievances of BLM is that some police departments treat themselves as an occupying force, instead of community members there to protect the citizens of the community. So if that's the perception, change it! Even if that change is lead by the police more than the protesters, what harm could it possibly do?

I just thought I'd take the time to respond to your entire post since you've clearly put a lot of thought into this, and you're much more reasonable and well-spoken than some. Thanks for your reply.

Edited July 9, 20169 yr by Riley24

One problem that leads to allot of this is persons (not just any particular race) feel they are in a position to fight a officer or be the judge and jury at a situation. This is where respect or following commands fails to exist. If the officer is wrong then record it, have witnesses, obey orders and don't tense up or get aggressive. If you are in the right and your rights were violated by a rogue officer you will have your day in court as well as your lawsuit against said agency and a jury will see the facts and decide. But if you try to control the outcome of a traffic stop or situation with law enforcement I guarantee they will try to control it. They don't know who you are and if you come off aggressive or avoiding particular things it raises flags and makes one question what is this guy hiding. Keep in mind most people don't hide or avoid to ignore orders and commands from officers. When most people do they either have warrants, drugs, just committed a crime, or have some other issue that is a red flag. If people would obey commands not argue and keep hands where told I believe allot of these situations wouldn't have gone the way they did. Like I said if you feel your rights were violated that is what the process is to report it, and file your lawsuit and let a jury decide. If you try to be the judge and jury on site I guarantee it won't go good. Now after the other day do you think law enforcement will pass off a group of folks carrying rifles maybe wearing camo or armor. Nope. I guarantee you'll get special attention. You may only see a few uniformed in front of you but I guarantee half the department or district is around taking positions in case. What half of these my rights people don't have a clue on is nobody is out to take rights away rather they walk into a normal public setting with abnormal actions such as rifles and hand guns and filming. These types want attention. They seek it. Either they have something upstairs wrong or they live off the youtube payment system wanting a good rating video twisting footage making leos look ignorant and stupid. All them guys edit videos. Specially guys like tom zebra in LA and the other one in Arizona going to check points on purpose everyday to push reactions on leos. Something is wrong with these people. If you notice in any DWI or CBP checkpoint most people show a license and reg at the DWI and they are off on the way no longer then a minute or two with the officer minus waiting in like prior. Same for CBP you are asked your citizenship and simple questions not to take your rights away but he is looking for certain tall tale replies and movements to red flag for narcotics and illegal activity. Simply saying us citizen or American most go on there way no issues. Now some cases with those of high blood pressure and such yeah it flags unfortunately but in end they realize it's a medical issue and no alarm going off. Any how enough of the rant. Simply if people would obey commands right or wrong they would avoid allot of grief and hardship. In the end after if wrong was done those officers will face department and legal punishment.

1 hour ago, Riley24 said:

You say "regardless of the facts" as if the facts aren't on their side. They're not protesting over nothing. its not all a big misunderstanding. There are proven disadvantages and disparities for black people in our justice system. Talking about it doesn't make it exist, it exists regardless.

Police killed over 100 unarmed black people across the country in 2015, which is 5x the rate of whites. (Source) We absolutely need to mourn the devastating loss of any officer killed, but can we also recognize that startling statistic? It feels like even mentioning those statistics is met with accusations of being "anti-police". Those officers in Dallas were killed at a protest over those statistics. Those statistics aren't annulled because of the bloodshed, its not suddenly irrelevant. It is not pro-police or anti-police, it is anti-police brutality/injustice and "lets stop having this conversation". I've been accused of faking grief of fallen officers simply because I don't defend every officer in the news.

I don't really want to comment on the merit of specific cases, but yes, it is true that there are many cases where the grievances are entirely understandable.  Some of the cases that we've seen over the years have been really bad for law enforcement, and there are serious questions that need to be asked regarding them.

I hate to say it, but unfortunately there's a flip-side to the part about mentioning statistics about police killings.  Again, you're right in that it is disconcerting to see that there are people, especially some on the far right, who treat criticism of the police as being some sort of unpatriotic treachery.  Ultimately, criticism of people and institutions is a key part of any society which values the rights of its people.  The flip-side, however, is that mentioning statistics about crime in poor, predominantly black neighbourhoods, results in you instantly being labelled as a racist.  There will be all sorts of figures, in contrast to the one you've given, which illustrate just how disproportionately black people are more likely to both perpetrate, and be the victims of crime.  In Milwaukee, for example, which is supposedly one of the most segregated cities in the US (the I-43/I-94 acts almost as a border between rich and poor), the chief of police quite famously said that 80% of their homicide victims were black and that 80% of their shooting victims that survived were black.  Indeed, these figures come from some of the poorest, highest black population zip codes in the state.  Of course, any reasonable person understands that it has nothing to do with race whatsoever, but anyone who makes the mere suggestion that there's more crime in these neighbourhoods can expect to be vilified.  It seems now that a lot of black people are more concerned with blaming the police though, distracting themselves from the uncomfortable truths about the horrible criminal and gang cultures which have become so endemic throughout cities in the US.  In now way am I saying that this is a problem exclusive to certain groups of people, but it seems to me like something which is particularly and disproportionately affecting the young people who grow up in these places, far more so than others elsewhere.  Unfortunately, nobody seems to care about the causes of crime, however, and most politicians are more interested in the enforcement aspect - I think this is just one of the many factors as to how we end up here.

I do completely agree as well that there are some examples where it does feel like police, particularly in North America, could be perceived to be an occupying force.  I think there's definitely been a number of examples of this, perhaps most prolifically in Ferguson where the damming Justice Department report shed light on some of the ways in which the local court system was basically a money making operation.  The important thing though is that we are seeing a trend where police are generally becoming more accountable in the US, and yes, it'd be foolish to deny the influence that the recent protests and events and such have had towards this, but I think that it is also important to note that we're probably not seeing the same on the other side.  My take is that there could be an entire year where every single police shooting is completely justified, complete with all the evidence to prove it, and there would still be mass protests each time.  I think it's great that more and more unjustified incidents are being reported on and the officers involved are being held accountable, but it's a shame that the good cops are being caught up in the middle, and unfortunately it's resulted in this horrible anti-police mentality which has no doubt fuelled the events in Dallas.

The problem now, I fear, is that the law enforcement community will become increasingly factionalised, with officers becoming more fearful for their lives and with more officers perceiving other people (very important to note that police brutality is in no way limited to black people) as the enemy.  As I said before, when you have more and more people seeing each other as the enemy, you have more trouble.

 

On another side issue with current times encryption is a trend that will continue specially after incidents such as recent in which the public and media stream a officers last words on the tv or public radio. It also doesn't help when they are giving live audio from the officers in which the suspects can be listening in on. This has been documented fact before on some cases where suspects were in a standoff and the public streaming police audio in near real time of tac channels giving the suspect heads up. Those entities now use full encryption. Which we are heading on to soon.

55 minutes ago, Sam said:

I hate to say it, but unfortunately there's a flip-side to the part about mentioning statistics about police killings.  Again, you're right in that it is disconcerting to see that there are people, especially some on the far right, who treat criticism of the police as being some sort of unpatriotic treachery.  Ultimately, criticism of people and institutions is a key part of any society which values the rights of its people.  The flip-side, however, is that mentioning statistics about crime in poor, predominantly black neighbourhoods, results in you instantly being labelled as a racist.  There will be all sorts of figures, in contrast to the one you've given, which illustrate just how disproportionately black people are more likely to both perpetrate, and be the victims of crime.  In Milwaukee, for example, which is supposedly one of the most segregated cities in the US (the I-43/I-94 acts almost as a border between rich and poor), the chief of police quite famously said that 80% of their homicide victims were black and that 80% of their shooting victims that survived were black.  Indeed, these figures come from some of the poorest, highest black population zip codes in the state.  Of course, any reasonable person understands that it has nothing to do with race whatsoever, but anyone who makes the mere suggestion that there's more crime in these neighbourhoods can expect to be vilified.  It seems now that a lot of black people are more concerned with blaming the police though, distracting themselves from the uncomfortable truths about the horrible criminal and gang cultures which have become so endemic throughout cities in the US.  In now way am I saying that this is a problem exclusive to certain groups of people, but it seems to me like something which is particularly and disproportionately affecting the young people who grow up in these places, far more so than others elsewhere.  Unfortunately, nobody seems to care about the causes of crime, however, and most politicians are more interested in the enforcement aspect - I think this is just one of the many factors as to how we end up here.

You don't have to worry about me thinking you're racist, I can clearly tell you're not. 

What you're referring to is what people call "black on black crime". Which is weird, because I've never heard of "white on white crime" or "Asian on Asian crime". Most "black on black" crime occurs in inner cities, where there's a whole host of issues that contribute to it. Lack of education, poverty, lack of jobs, high circulation of guns, etc etc. The only time that Republicans and Conservatives have ever mentioned "black on black crime" is during conversations about white people killing black people. Its a distraction. It has the connotation of "black people kill more black people than white people, so lets stop talking about racism". And ironically, the people that argue that point are the same people that could not be less interested in finding ways to improve quality of life in the inner cities. Every time the government tries to start a program to help those people (like food stamps or education programs), conservatives slap it down and declare it "big government",

And so the nation-wide debate goes round and round in circles. Violence within the black community and armed public servants bringing their subconscious biases to work are two completely separate issues, but of course both are important.

55 minutes ago, Sam said:

I do completely agree as well that there are some examples where it does feel like police, particularly in North America, could be perceived to be an occupying force.  I think there's definitely been a number of examples of this, perhaps most prolifically in Ferguson where the damming Justice Department report shed light on some of the ways in which the local court system was basically a money making operation.  The important thing though is that we are seeing a trend where police are generally becoming more accountable in the US, and yes, it'd be foolish to deny the influence that the recent protests and events and such have had towards this, but I think that it is also important to note that we're probably not seeing the same on the other side.  My take is that there could be an entire year where every single police shooting is completely justified, complete with all the evidence to prove it, and there would still be mass protests each time.  I think it's great that more and more unjustified incidents are being reported on and the officers involved are being held accountable, but it's a shame that the good cops are being caught up in the middle, and unfortunately it's resulted in this horrible anti-police mentality which has no doubt fuelled the events in Dallas.

The problem now, I fear, is that the law enforcement community will become increasingly factionalised, with officers becoming more fearful for their lives and with more officers perceiving other people (very important to note that police brutality is in no way limited to black people) as the enemy.  As I said before, when you have more and more people seeing each other as the enemy, you have more trouble.

 

I agree with all of this, I would only argue that there are far more instances of police officers not receiving adequate prosecution than cases where good cops go down. So far I haven't seen a case where I thought "Woah, that cop's sentence was a little too harsh". They usually have to do something so egregious to be convicted of anything,

But again, if good cops are worried about getting a bad name because other cops are bad, its not a hard thing to fix. All that cop has to do is speak out for peace or justice and he will be coveted by everyone that would've hated him otherwise. But cops don't do that, because its seen as betraying their own. Its the "us vs. them" mentality that's being protested in the first place.

http://images.dailykos.com/images/122941/large/Pittsburgh_police_chief_cropped.jpg?1420477874

This is the Police Chief of Pittsburgh, who was MASSIVELY criticized for simply holding this sign. He also marched with protesters at a rally just the other day, after the sniper attacks. http://www.pennlive.com/news/2016/07/pittsburgh_police_chief_walks.html

There's a way to approach policing in a progressive way, and some are just starting to realize it. 

Edited July 9, 20169 yr by Riley24

17 hours ago, Ranger61 said:

I doubt this. The protests have been peaceful. I think that is one reason why he was able to kill so many.

 

Really? Does this look peaceful

These morons walk the street chanting the name of a Terrorist as well as some very delightful quotes such as:

"What do we want.....Dead cops, When do we want it NOW!"

"Pigs in blankets......Fry em like bacon"

"The only good pig....is a dead one"

Ohh, heres a new one that was said to me after i commented on someone saying "f*** the police on a YT video

"  f*** you white piece of sh**"

 

They are by no stretch of the imagination peaceful. They're race baiting, violent thugs.

Source: (1:26 if it doesn't auto skip)

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/joanne-deborah-chesimard/view

(look at the allied section, first name is off the BLM de-facto leader)

Edited July 9, 20169 yr by officerAMR

6 hours ago, Riley24 said:

Of course there some that cause trouble, but why should that be all that we focus on, and never talk about the good? It is fact that some people at BLM protests cause trouble. It is fact that some people take BLM protests too far. But if they don't have membership, it is unfair to say that that represents the movement as a whole. You have to stop at those two facts there.

Hmmmmm when I say that about the police people say that I am just ignoring bad police or don't want to address the issue. Why shouldn't we focus on all the good police do?

1 hour ago, Riley24 said:

You don't have to worry about me thinking you're racist, I can clearly tell you're not. 

What you're referring to is what people call "black on black crime". Which is weird, because I've never heard of "white on white crime" or "Asian on Asian crime". Most "black on black" crime occurs in inner cities, where there's a whole host of issues that contribute to it. Lack of education, poverty, lack of jobs, high circulation of guns, etc etc. The only time that Republicans and Conservatives have ever mentioned "black on black crime" is during conversations about white people killing black people. Its a distraction. It has the connotation of "black people kill more black people than white people, so lets stop talking about racism". And ironically, the people that argue that point are the same people that could not be less interested in finding ways to improve quality of life in the inner cities. Every time the government tries to start a program to help those people (like food stamps or education programs), conservatives slap it down and declare it "big government",

And so the nation-wide debate goes round and round in circles. Violence within the black community and armed public servants bringing their subconscious biases to work are two completely separate issues, but of course both are important.

I agree with all of this, I would only argue that there are far more instances of police officers not receiving adequate prosecution than cases where good cops go down. So far I haven't seen a case where I thought "Woah, that cop's sentence was a little too harsh". They usually have to do something so egregious to be convicted of anything,

But again, if good cops are worried about getting a bad name because other cops are bad, its not a hard thing to fix. All that cop has to do is speak out for peace or justice and he will be coveted by everyone that would've hated him otherwise. But cops don't do that, because its seen as betraying their own. Its the "us vs. them" mentality that's being protested in the first place.

My issue with the BLM movement is they only focus on when the police kill a black man not when black men are being killed by other black men. Why do black lives matter only when the police are the shooters? They are being very selective in which lives matter to them and I see that as somewhat hypocritical.

People keep saying "all cops need to do to be considered 'good cops' is speak out against bad cops and injustices" but from what I have seen most of the cops I know do exactly that. Where the issue seems to be is what cops and civilians consider an injustice. Every cop I know spoke out when the cop in S.C. shot and killed that guy who was running away after trying to grab his taser. Every cop I knew thought that was too far and wanted to see him prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. The biggest issue is that everyone starts protesting before even learning what happened. As soon as a black man is killed by the police there are protest, nobody knows what happened or if it was justified but solely because the person was black it automatically calls for a protest. And it isn't like police have been trying to address the issue. Everyone is calling for more transparency so what do the police do? Start issuing out body cams like crazy, they start focusing on more community policing. You can't say they aren't trying.

2 hours ago, TheDivineHustle said:

Wow, doesn't get any better than this.

-Image Removed-

 

Dont get me wrong, I like a little satire and am against political correctness, but it is WAY too early for a joke like this. 

Edited July 9, 20169 yr by Ben
Removed Image - Community Team

23 minutes ago, l3ubba said:

Hmmmmm when I say that about the police people say that I am just ignoring bad police or don't want to address the issue. Why shouldn't we focus on all the good police do?

My issue with the BLM movement is they only focus on when the police kill a black man not when black men are being killed by other black men. Why do black lives matter only when the police are the shooters? They are being very selective in which lives matter to them and I see that as somewhat hypocritical.

People keep saying "all cops need to do to be considered 'good cops' is speak out against bad cops and injustices" but from what I have seen most of the cops I know do exactly that. Where the issue seems to be is what cops and civilians consider an injustice. Every cop I know spoke out when the cop in S.C. shot and killed that guy who was running away after trying to grab his taser. Every cop I knew thought that was too far and wanted to see him prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. The biggest issue is that everyone starts protesting before even learning what happened. As soon as a black man is killed by the police there are protest, nobody knows what happened or if it was justified but solely because the person was black it automatically calls for a protest. And it isn't like police have been trying to address the issue. Everyone is calling for more transparency so what do the police do? Start issuing out body cams like crazy, they start focusing on more community policing. You can't say they aren't trying.

I just focused on the good and showed how they can be better. Cops get paid to do a job just like everyone else, it would be weird to praise all of them that don't questionably kill people. That would be a weird standard for praise, no? 

And you misunderstand the point of the BLM movement. If their slogan could be a long sentence instead of "black lives matter" it would be "Its clear that our justice system and society thinks that black lives don't matter, so we're gonna go ahead and remind you." They're not an advocacy group for keeping black people alive in every situation. And I already explained my issues with the "black on black crime" argument in my response to Sam.

The shooting is South Carolina was so incredibly egregious, any human being with morals looked at that and was disgusted. I'm not at all surprised that your LEO friends spoke out. But what about the shooting of Tamir Rice? Not to start that debate again, just using it as an example. The entire Cleveland police force rallied behind the officers. That is why some people get the impression that all "cops are bad", because of the "us vs. them" mentality. Hell, they have bumper stickers that literally convey that message. IE: thin blue line.

Edited July 9, 20169 yr by Riley24

15 minutes ago, Riley24 said:

I just focused on the good and showed how they can be better. Cops get paid to do a job just like everyone else, it would be weird to praise all of them that don't questionably kill people. That would be a weird standard for praise, no? 

And you misunderstand the point of the BLM movement. If their slogan could be a long sentence instead of "black lives matter" it would be "Its clear that our justice system and society thinks that black lives don't matter, so we're gonna go ahead and remind you." They're not an advocacy group for keeping black people alive in every situation. And I already explained my issues with the "black on black crime" argument in my response to Sam.

The shooting is South Carolina was so incredibly egregious, any human being with morals looked at that and was disgusted. I'm not at all surprised that your LEO friends spoke out. But what about the shooting of Tamir Rice? Not to start that debate again, just using it as an example. The entire Cleveland police force rallied behind the officers. That is why some people get the impression that all "cops are bad", because of the "us vs. them" mentality. Hell, they have bumper stickers that literally convey that message. IE: thin blue line.

I don't keep track of my friends positions on every shooting but I know they are good guys and stand up against evil regardless of whether or not they are wearing a uniform (I'm cringing just writing that because it sounds so cliche but it is true). My point is BLM is quick to jump to conclusions on cases when before anything is known whereas police officers want to see what the investigation reveals before they start passing judgement (in most cases anyway).

I think you are misinterpreting the thin blue line. It does not mean "us vs them" the blue line symbolizes law enforcement standing between good and evil. On one side is evil and the only thing protecting the good and the innocent is the thin blue line of police officers.

15 minutes ago, l3ubba said:

I don't keep track of my friends positions on every shooting but I know they are good guys and stand up against evil regardless of whether or not they are wearing a uniform (I'm cringing just writing that because it sounds so cliche but it is true). My point is BLM is quick to jump to conclusions on cases when before anything is known whereas police officers want to see what the investigation reveals before they start passing judgement (in most cases anyway).

I think you are misinterpreting the thin blue line. It does not mean "us vs them" the blue line symbolizes law enforcement standing between good and evil. On one side is evil and the only thing protecting the good and the innocent is the thin blue line of police officers.

Right, I never said they were bad people. I'm sure they're great people, all the cops I've come across so far have been. The only problem is that our society's definition of injustice is changing.

And my problem with the thin blue line mentality (not the literal bumper sticker) is that we instill a lot of fear into police officers, and I think some of them get the idea that its cops vs. bad guys, instead of cops protecting citizens. At some point, some police departments start treating themselves as an occupying force who's safety is more important than that of the citizen. But that's literally not the job of the police, they're supposed to protect us. When we send cops out on the streets with a lot of fear, the mentality of an occupying force, and questionable legal precedents, is it at all surprising that the shooting in Minnesota happened. It feels like law enforcement philosophy changed post 9/11. There's such a massive emphasis placed on militarization and officer safety, it seems like the safety of the citizen is an afterthought. Even if that's just a perception problem, its theirs to fix.

BLM and police need to both come together and realize that they want the same exact thing: justice, peace, and safety. I think its the job of public servants to start that conversation, just like the police in Pittsburgh, Dallas, and Los Angeles. Here's an idea: instead of cracking down on protest and throwing gas on the fire, why don't police departments invite all of the local BLM organizers to the headquarters, sit down, and talk about how to make the city safer? Then without admitting fault, issue a statement pledging to continue improving relations and finding solutions? But no, its cops vs. protesters, and no one wants to look like a traitor.

Edited July 9, 20169 yr by Riley24

9 minutes ago, Riley24 said:

Right, I never said they were bad people. I'm sure they're great people, all the cops I've come across so far have been. The only problem is that our society's definition of injustice is changing.

And my problem with the thin blue line mentality (not the literal bumper sticker) is that we instill a lot of fear into police officers, and I think some of them get the idea that its cops vs. bad guys, instead of cops protecting citizens. At some point, some police departments start treating themselves as an occupying force who's safety is more important than that of the citizen. But that's literally not the job of the police, they're supposed to protect us. When we send cops out on the streets with a lot of fear, the mentality of an occupying force, and questionable legal precedents, is it at all surprising that the shooting in Minnesota happened. It feels like law enforcement philosophy changed post 9/11. There's such a massive emphasis placed on militarization and officer safety, it seems like the safety of the citizen is an afterthought. Even if that's just a perception problem, its theirs to fix.

BLM and police need to both come together and realize that they want the same exact thing: justice, peace, and safety. I think its the job of public servants to start that conversation, just like the police in Pittsburgh, Dallas, and Los Angeles. Here's an idea: instead of cracking down on protest and throwing gas on the fire, why don't police departments invite all of the local BLM organizers to the headquarters, sit down, and talk about how to make the city safer? Then without admitting fault, issue a statement pledging to continue improving relations and finding solutions? But no, its cops vs. protesters, and no one wants to look like a traitor.

I haven't seen any police department have the mentality of an occupying force. They go out trying to protect innocent people and enforce the law. I think that second part of their job description is forgotten a lot by citizens. Yes, the police are there to protect you but they also must enforce the law and most people don't like that part. It is their job to pull you over because you have a broken tail light or arrest you because you were breaking a law. And if people resist when the police are trying to enforce a law the police have the authority to use appropriate force to stop you. It isn't a popular position but someone has to do it.

The police in Dallas weren't "cracking down on protests" were they? They were out there making sure it didn't get out of hand right? When protests pop up the police have to be there, it doesn't necessarily mean they are trying to stop the protesters from doing anything they are just making sure everyone is staying safe and no laws are being broken because regardless of whether or not the protest organizers intended for their protest to get out of hand there is always bad apples in the crowd who will use that to their advantage and abuse the anonymity of the crowd.

There are plenty of departments who have invited black community leaders to come talk with them or go through some kind of scenario or simulator to try and increase understanding between the two groups but I have rarely seen any BLM leader take anything away from it. Unless it is some really small town with a department of like 8 officers every department has a community policing section/PR section and if any community leader (black, white, gay, etc) wanted to sit down and talk with the police the department would be more than happy to arrange that. There is a system already set up for the police to engage the community but it is a two way street. The community needs to be willing to talk to those officers and listen to what they have to say for it to work. For example, when there is a murder (or pretty much any crime) committed in a neighborhood the community will protect the suspect (or at the very least refuse to talk to police). The police are out there trying to solve a crime in your neighborhood and you are refusing to help them. That is fine and all but don't turn around and say "the police never help us, they just want to shoot us and put us in jail".

2 hours ago, officerAMR said:

Really? Does this look peaceful

Actually, it looks like the Baltimore unrest after the Freddie Gray incident. Not to defend it, (I thoroughly enjoyed the mom putting the beating one kid out there) the unrest stemmed in part from a poor relationship between police and the community they served. Baltimore ended up settling with Freddie Gray's family. The taxpayers paid out more than $5 million dollars. This is on top the $5 million it had already paid over the past several years for something like 100 incidents of excessive force.

Going back further toward the beginning of the BlackLivesMatter social media thing, the Justice Department released a rather damning report against the Ferguson Police Department. Despite the fact, that the shooting that initiated the investigation was determined to be justified.

There are legitimate grievances behind these protests. Police departments that are not prepared, particularly in a post-Ferguson era, place a lot of lives.

This is not to defend the rhetoric. Perhaps I've grown tone-deaf in what has become a very toxic political and social environment, but I don't think many of the people protesting wanted what happened. If we are going to throw blame, I'm sure we can pretty much throw a stick at whatever direction we like, and justifiably smack someone. 

Did the BlackLivesMatter (looking at those that popped off at mouth) and the majority of those protesting want this ? Did those who believe in the Right to bear arms want this? Did the two political parties that have our nation divided want this?

I think the resounding answer is no. I believe the only one that really wanted this is Micah Xavier Johnson. We as a society is still here to correct our errors if we choose to.

Edited July 9, 20169 yr by Ranger61

3 minutes ago, Ranger61 said:

Going back further toward the beginning of the BlackLivesMatter social media thing, the Justice Department released a rather damning report against the Ferguson Police Department. Despite the fact, that the shooting that initiated the investigation was determined to be justified.

The shooting and the DoJ investigation of FPD were two separate investigations. The shooting brought the spotlight on FPD but the investigation of the department as a whole was not the same as the investigation of the shooting. The shooting (one particular incident) was justified however as a whole the department was messing up pretty bad. Overall I agree with the results of both investigations. I agree that the shooting was justified and I am happy that FPD got called out on the injustices going on in Ferguson so that they can be addressed.

1 hour ago, Ranger61 said:

 

Did the BlackLivesMatter (looking at those that popped off at mouth) and the majority of those protesting want this ? Did those who believe in the Right to bear arms want this? Did the two political parties that have our nation divided want this?

I think the resounding answer is no. I believe the only one that really wanted this is Micah Xavier Johnson. We as a society is still here to correct our errors if we choose to.

I've been looking a lot on social media today, and i'm starting to think that these people want anarchy. Theres a frightening amount of people praising the bastard that killed those cops. Of course some will be idiots stirring for the fun, but to me it seems like its way too many people have a anti-cop AND anti-white racist message. Yet these people are being hailed as heros for striving for equality? Its absurd to say the least. 

Do i think most people striving for equality want this? no, like you said.

But i do think BLM is at least to some extent fueling the fire if not to blame for calling such attacks as the one on cops in Dallas as shown by their "family friendly" messages calling for police officers deaths.. I wouldn't blame the protesters there that night for this of course, i'm sure many people are unaware of what the group is really like, and are there for the sole reason to protest for equality.

I do agree that there are deep seated community trust issues between minority and cops, you get it here in the UK. But again that doesn't mean you act irrational and decide to destroy a cop car, loot, rob, break property etc. Does that help a equality cause? no. Did Martin Luther King manage to gain black rights by rioting, no. So why would people decide that rioting  and calling for cops deaths, all in the name of improving relations? It doesn't, it will do the complete opposite. It seems as if people are trying to start a riot for the shits and giggles and having the ability to loot and rob stuff.

There needs to be civilised discussions between actual people who care about advancing equality, Cops and the government to help improve equality. Thats the only way things will ever improve. No amount of riots, killing, racism and Political Correctness thats gone awry will improve the relations between minorities and cops because people who are doing those things couldn't give a flying f**k about equality, they only care about dividing the US against itself  

Found this snippit though it was worth the share

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/agitators-hurl-rocks-phoenix-police-chant-shoot/

Edited July 9, 20169 yr by officerAMR

I might have grown someone tone-deaf as result of years of listening and watching (and yes participating) in our toxic political and social environment, but I think you have to look beyond what people are saying to decipher what they mean. And I don't see the riots. There have been few incidents of violence, no matter the noise chatter. People are not celebrating in the streets. We haven't seen more violence.

I think police are apt at distinguishing between frustrated and misguided free speech, and violent intent. That's one reason all hell hasn't broken loose. We have certainly seen improvements in a number of local police departments around the country. Speaking for my own area, there is better training, and openness between both sides. I also think the shooting took America, and the protestors to the dark side, an extreme that many at least in the media are speaking out against, and more importantly having to address, not pretend its unthinkable.

Will realize rational national conversation? I have less confidence there. There are just too many opportunities, and our political and social system, is so toxic, I fear we are paralyzed.

12 hours ago, officerAMR said:

Really? Does this look peaceful

 

These morons walk the street chanting the name of a Terrorist as well as some very delightful quotes such as:

"What do we want.....Dead cops, When do we want it NOW!"

"Pigs in blankets......Fry em like bacon"

"The only good pig....is a dead one"

Ohh, heres a new one that was said to me after i commented on someone saying "f*** the police on a YT video

"  f*** you white piece of sh**"

 

They are by no stretch of the imagination peaceful. They're race baiting, violent thugs.

Source: (1:26 if it doesn't auto skip)

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/joanne-deborah-chesimard/view

(look at the allied section, first name is off the BLM de-facto leader)

Shh, those things don't real.