10 hours ago, l3ubba said:

I haven't seen any police department have the mentality of an occupying force. They go out trying to protect innocent people and enforce the law. I think that second part of their job description is forgotten a lot by citizens. Yes, the police are there to protect you but they also must enforce the law and most people don't like that part. It is their job to pull you over because you have a broken tail light or arrest you because you were breaking a law. And if people resist when the police are trying to enforce a law the police have the authority to use appropriate force to stop you. It isn't a popular position but someone has to do it.

The police in Dallas weren't "cracking down on protests" were they? They were out there making sure it didn't get out of hand right? When protests pop up the police have to be there, it doesn't necessarily mean they are trying to stop the protesters from doing anything they are just making sure everyone is staying safe and no laws are being broken because regardless of whether or not the protest organizers intended for their protest to get out of hand there is always bad apples in the crowd who will use that to their advantage and abuse the anonymity of the crowd.

There are plenty of departments who have invited black community leaders to come talk with them or go through some kind of scenario or simulator to try and increase understanding between the two groups but I have rarely seen any BLM leader take anything away from it. Unless it is some really small town with a department of like 8 officers every department has a community policing section/PR section and if any community leader (black, white, gay, etc) wanted to sit down and talk with the police the department would be more than happy to arrange that. There is a system already set up for the police to engage the community but it is a two way street. The community needs to be willing to talk to those officers and listen to what they have to say for it to work. For example, when there is a murder (or pretty much any crime) committed in a neighborhood the community will protect the suspect (or at the very least refuse to talk to police). The police are out there trying to solve a crime in your neighborhood and you are refusing to help them. That is fine and all but don't turn around and say "the police never help us, they just want to shoot us and put us in jail".

I'm afraid that if you say something like "I haven't seen any police department have the mentality of an occupying force. They go out trying to protect innocent people and enforce the law.", you haven't quite been exposed to what's going on in the country. That a massively generalized and idealistic statement, and doesn't accurately reflect many departments. Overall, are the police a force for good in the country? Yeah. But does that mean that NO systemic problems exist? Of course not. "Most cops are good" is not a good response to grievances of systemic problems. There are so many examples and testimonies I could give you, I frankly don't know where to start in terms of getting you to see what all of us are seeing. You're a smart guy though, I'm sure you'll arrive there on your own (that wasn't sarcastic or condescending). Just read over all of these cases again, read the Ferguson DOJ reports, read testimonies from police whistleblowers and activists. There's a very ugly side of policing that's been given a free pass up until this point.

And at the end of the day, BLM has a constitutional right to peacefully protest. That right was taken away in the past, and is being taken away literally right now. Look on Twitter, check out what's going on in St. Paul. Riot cops are snatching up peaceful protesters and dragging them away for literally no reason. There's videos of people walking around preaching for peace, and riot cops come battling in and drag them away. They're firing flash bangs and tear gas at journalists. Can you blame ANYONE at that peaceful protest for their disdain for law enforcement? How can you not look at that stuff and see why people are angry? Their legitimate right to be angry doesn't end the second someone throws a rock, or some crazy mass shooter decides he wants to kill cops. You can mourn the loss of every officer, and still demand a more justice system. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. It is not anti-police to want reform.

So far, all you've done is defended law enforcement no matter what the situation was. That seems to be your function here, and if that's the case I don't want any more of a debate. I've talked about my grievances with BLM, I have no dog in this fight. So what do you think police can do to help amend this growing problem in the country? 

2 hours ago, Riley24 said:

I'm afraid that if you say something like "I haven't seen any police department have the mentality of an occupying force. They go out trying to protect innocent people and enforce the law.", you haven't quite been exposed to what's going on in the country. That a massively generalized and idealistic statement, and doesn't accurately reflect many departments. Overall, are the police a force for good in the country? Yeah. But does that mean that NO systemic problems exist? Of course not. "Most cops are good" is not a good response to grievances of systemic problems. There are so many examples and testimonies I could give you, I frankly don't know where to start in terms of getting you to see what all of us are seeing. You're a smart guy though, I'm sure you'll arrive there on your own (that wasn't sarcastic or condescending). Just read over all of these cases again, read the Ferguson DOJ reports, read testimonies from police whistleblowers and activists. There's a very ugly side of policing that's been given a free pass up until this point.

And at the end of the day, BLM has a constitutional right to peacefully protest. That right was taken away in the past, and is being taken away literally right now. Look on Twitter, check out what's going on in St. Paul. Riot cops are snatching up peaceful protesters and dragging them away for literally no reason. There's videos of people walking around preaching for peace, and riot cops come battling in and drag them away. They're firing flash bangs and tear gas at journalists. Can you blame ANYONE at that peaceful protest for their disdain for law enforcement? How can you not look at that stuff and see why people are angry? Their legitimate right to be angry doesn't end the second someone throws a rock, or some crazy mass shooter decides he wants to kill cops. You can mourn the loss of every officer, and still demand a more justice system. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. It is not anti-police to want reform.

So far, all you've done is defended law enforcement no matter what the situation was. That seems to be your function here, and if that's the case I don't want any more of a debate. I've talked about my grievances with BLM, I have no dog in this fight. So what do you think police can do to help amend this growing problem in the country? 

Why is it that if I use a generalized statement I am said to "not have been exposed to what is going on"? I am American too aren't I? I should have been able to see at least a little bit of what is going on right? Or am I not aware because I have a different point of view on the situation? I never said there were no systemic problems. Apparently you didn't read the last paragraph of my last comment because that entire paragraph talked about what the police have done to try and solve some of these issues. The police are trying to increase transparency and engage communities now more than they ever have in the past. You keep saying that I am ignoring the issue but I have talked about it and pointed out that there are efforts being made to fix it.

So I have only read a couple of short articles on what is going on in St. Paul right now but from what I have read it sounds like the police are arresting people who are disrupting traffic. There are also reports that some protesters were shooting fireworks at the police, so I wouldn't say they are taking them away for no reason. Plus while their protests are largely peaceful they are still doing illegal things like blocking highways and intersections. I'm not saying they shouldn't be protesting but I willing to bet that protests that have permits and follow the law don't get the same law enforcement response. If they want to protest in the manner that they are I am cool with that, I understand why they want to protest that way, but there are consequences for choosing that method. You don't seriously expect the police to just sit back and say "oh you're blocking a highway, that's cool we'll just let you continue on" do you?

I have not defended law enforcement "no matter what". The majority of topics that are brought up on this forum just happen to be topics that I side with the police on. I know there have been topics where I thought the police were wrong and I expressed that belief. I don't know if you read those posts or not but that isn't really my concern. There are also plenty of things I have disagreed with the police on that weren't posted on here hence why you might not have seen me post anything on here. I am not a politician, I am not going to come out and make a statement on every single event that happens in this country. I come on this website once every week or two to see what is going on and if I see a topic that I am interested in I will join the conversation.

@l3ubba, please, remember there's no room in their mind for anything but their own biases. When you argue with a fool in front of an crowd, you aren't trying to change their minds, it's the audience you're worried about. Don't strain yourself.

23 hours ago, Riley24 said:

What you're referring to is what people call "black on black crime". Which is weird, because I've never heard of "white on white crime" or "Asian on Asian crime". Most "black on black" crime occurs in inner cities, where there's a whole host of issues that contribute to it. Lack of education, poverty, lack of jobs, high circulation of guns, etc etc.

Wait, what? "education, poverty and jobs" what makes those circumstances a valid reason to commit a crime. What makes it okay to blow someone away just because you didn't attend school (regardless of self choice or not), same for being poor and lacking a job. It shouldn't take Stephen Hawking's IQ to differentiate right from wrong, that shooting someone, be it white, black, purple or blue is a very wrong thing to do. There is never a case that can be made that someone is justified to shoot another human just because they lack a job, education and or are poor. Likewise, there is very few crimes out there to commit that are justifiable because of the aforementioned, mugging, robbing, etc is an unjustifiable crime just because you're lacking the above. I can somewhat understand if you're dirt poor, and need to provide for yourself or family and desperately need to steal food/clothing/essentials, but anything above that is strictly non-sense crime's to commit. 

 

I don't get that mentality, that it's okay to commit a crime just because you're in unfortunate circumstances in life currently. With that logic, because I don't own or can't afford a brand spanking new vehicle that it's "justifiable" for me to steal one. I'm sorry, but that excuse is more hogwash than anything else. Let's not forget that if the aforementioned crimes were justifiable, it doesn't detract from the fact that it is still a crime and therefore fewer run ins with the law would typically mean fewer of the supposed racial profiling's if said crimes were not committed in the first place. People seem to love to dilute the crimes they've committed nowadays based on their certain circumstances "Oh, I killed my entire family because I was tripping on acid" or, "I neglected my kids because I was too busy getting high and drunk" what's worse is that these cases somehow get a pass in the Justice system - which is a problem in of itself. 

8 hours ago, l3ubba said:

Why is it that if I use a generalized statement I am said to "not have been exposed to what is going on"? I am American too aren't I? I should have been able to see at least a little bit of what is going on right? Or am I not aware because I have a different point of view on the situation? I never said there were no systemic problems. Apparently you didn't read the last paragraph of my last comment because that entire paragraph talked about what the police have done to try and solve some of these issues. The police are trying to increase transparency and engage communities now more than they ever have in the past. You keep saying that I am ignoring the issue but I have talked about it and pointed out that there are efforts being made to fix it.

So I have only read a couple of short articles on what is going on in St. Paul right now but from what I have read it sounds like the police are arresting people who are disrupting traffic. There are also reports that some protesters were shooting fireworks at the police, so I wouldn't say they are taking them away for no reason. Plus while their protests are largely peaceful they are still doing illegal things like blocking highways and intersections. I'm not saying they shouldn't be protesting but I willing to bet that protests that have permits and follow the law don't get the same law enforcement response. If they want to protest in the manner that they are I am cool with that, I understand why they want to protest that way, but there are consequences for choosing that method. You don't seriously expect the police to just sit back and say "oh you're blocking a highway, that's cool we'll just let you continue on" do you?

I have not defended law enforcement "no matter what". The majority of topics that are brought up on this forum just happen to be topics that I side with the police on. I know there have been topics where I thought the police were wrong and I expressed that belief. I don't know if you read those posts or not but that isn't really my concern. There are also plenty of things I have disagreed with the police on that weren't posted on here hence why you might not have seen me post anything on here. I am not a politician, I am not going to come out and make a statement on every single event that happens in this country. I come on this website once every week or two to see what is going on and if I see a topic that I am interested in I will join the conversation.

If you talk far more about how bad the protesters are than the issues they're protesting, you can't claim to be looking for solutions to the problem. 

The police in St. Paul were indiscriminately arresting peaceful protesters on sidewalks and side streets. Watch the videos for yourself. A famous activist was whisked away by riot cops while standing on a sidewalk preaching for peace. Will there ever be any accountability for that? Of course not.

I've talked with you before about systemic issues in policing, and you've told me that there were none. Have you changed your mind since then? Are we now more on the same page? If so, ignore most of my first post. My mistake 

1 hour ago, Solidefiance said:

Wait, what? "education, poverty and jobs" what makes those circumstances a valid reason to commit a crime. What makes it okay to blow someone away just because you didn't attend school (regardless of self choice or not), same for being poor and lacking a job. It shouldn't take Stephen Hawking's IQ to differentiate right from wrong, that shooting someone, be it white, black, purple or blue is a very wrong thing to do. There is never a case that can be made that someone is justified to shoot another human just because they lack a job, education and or are poor. Likewise, there is very few crimes out there to commit that are justifiable because of the aforementioned, mugging, robbing, etc is an unjustifiable crime just because you're lacking the above. I can somewhat understand if you're dirt poor, and need to provide for yourself or family and desperately need to steal food/clothing/essentials, but anything above that is strictly non-sense crime's to commit. 

 

I don't get that mentality, that it's okay to commit a crime just because you're in unfortunate circumstances in life currently. With that logic, because I don't own or can't afford a brand spanking new vehicle that it's "justifiable" for me to steal one. I'm sorry, but that excuse is more hogwash than anything else. Let's not forget that if the aforementioned crimes were justifiable, it doesn't detract from the fact that it is still a crime and therefore fewer run ins with the law would typically mean fewer of the supposed racial profiling's if said crimes were not committed in the first place. People seem to love to dilute the crimes they've committed nowadays based on their certain circumstances "Oh, I killed my entire family because I was tripping on acid" or, "I neglected my kids because I was too busy getting high and drunk" what's worse is that these cases somehow get a pass in the Justice system - which is a problem in of itself. 

You misunderstood my point. I wasn't excusing crime, I was explaining some of the factors that lead to it in those areas. 

3 hours ago, Riley24 said:

If you talk far more about how bad the protesters are than the issues they're protesting, you can't claim to be looking for solutions to the problem. 

The police in St. Paul were indiscriminately arresting peaceful protesters on sidewalks and side streets. Watch the videos for yourself. A famous activist was whisked away by riot cops while standing on a sidewalk preaching for peace. Will there ever be any accountability for that? Of course not.

I've talked with you before about systemic issues in policing, and you've told me that there were none. Have you changed your mind since then? Are we now more on the same page? If so, ignore most of my first post. My mistake

I didn't bring up the protesters. Like I said, I don't care that they are protesting and I understand why they are but at the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that they are doing so in an illegal way so I'm not going to feel sorry for them when the police show up to arrest them. I haven't really found any videos on the protests (except for one that someone linked on FB) for some reason all my search results show the riots in St. Paul from a couple years ago. From what I have heard the protests are mostly peaceful but have got a little out of hand in a few cases such as the video below. I apologize in advance for the annoying ass narrator, needs to pull the mic out of his throat or better yet stop talking.

And in this video the police are just sitting there taking it. They aren't even doing anything back. These protesters are blocking the interstate and throwing fireworks at the cops and the cops just stand there and take it.

I do believe there are systemic issues in the criminal justice system as a whole (not just law enforcement) and I think there are legitimate issues that need to be fixed. I also think that law enforcement agencies across the country are trying to address some of these issues. I also think that BLM is a little quick to jump on the "racists cops just murdered a black person" button. No matter which case it is, they immediately protest. There could be a case of justified use of force such as in Ferguson but they will scream that it was murder. They want the justice system to treat them equally and give them a chance but they won't afford the police officers the same right. I might have a little more sympathy for them if they actually waited to hear the facts and see the evidence of the case. If the shooting happened at 6PM on Monday and you are protesting at 7AM on Tuesday you really haven't had any time to learn what happened, to me that is just ignorant.

I don't know if these two recent shootings were justified or not. There isn't enough evidence to go off of with the videos that have been released so I am going to wait and see what the investigation reveals. If the investigation in the Louisiana case reveals that the suspect did have a gun in his pocket and he was reaching for it then I will say it is justified, if it turns out nothing was there then I'll say that those cops need to be charged.

9 minutes ago, l3ubba said:

I didn't bring up the protesters. Like I said, I don't care that they are protesting and I understand why they are but at the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that they are doing so in an illegal way so I'm not going to feel sorry for them when the police show up to arrest them. I haven't really found any videos on the protests (except for one that someone linked on FB) for some reason all my search results show the riots in St. Paul from a couple years ago. From what I have heard the protests are mostly peaceful but have got a little out of hand in a few cases such as the video below. I apologize in advance for the annoying ass narrator, needs to pull the mic out of his throat or better yet stop talking.

And in this video the police are just sitting there taking it. They aren't even doing anything back. These protesters are blocking the interstate and throwing fireworks at the cops and the cops just stand there and take it.

I do believe there are systemic issues in the criminal justice system as a whole (not just law enforcement) and I think there are legitimate issues that need to be fixed. I also think that law enforcement agencies across the country are trying to address some of these issues. I also think that BLM is a little quick to jump on the "racists cops just murdered a black person" button. No matter which case it is, they immediately protest. There could be a case of justified use of force such as in Ferguson but they will scream that it was murder. They want the justice system to treat them equally and give them a chance but they won't afford the police officers the same right. I might have a little more sympathy for them if they actually waited to hear the facts and see the evidence of the case. If the shooting happened at 6PM on Monday and you are protesting at 7AM on Tuesday you really haven't had any time to learn what happened, to me that is just ignorant.

I don't know if these two recent shootings were justified or not. There isn't enough evidence to go off of with the videos that have been released so I am going to wait and see what the investigation reveals. If the investigation in the Louisiana case reveals that the suspect did have a gun in his pocket and he was reaching for it then I will say it is justified, if it turns out nothing was there then I'll say that those cops need to be charged.

Managed to find a picture of that narrator

http://storage.akamai.coub.com/get/b77/p/coub/simple/cw_image/6f80bb692f3/c4eac182d3599cbb184a4/timeline_1446601179_00021.jpg

And I'm actually going to wrap this debate up, because it seems like its unnecessary. I largely agree with almost all the points you're making. Of course those protesters shouldn't throw fireworks, just as the cops shouldn't launch teargas at journalists. There was no rioting in Dallas, Pittsburgh, or Los Angeles, because those police departments got ahead of the issue and reached out to the community. St. Paul, Ferguson, and Baltimore PD did nothing of the sort. This isn't an issue where one side is totally in the wrong and the other side is totally innocent, I don't think either of us are claiming that's the case. What's infinitely more important than rounding up protesters is fixing the system that they're protesting in the first place. People did it with OWS too, they sat around grumbling about how much they hated their tactics and called them dirty hippies, no-lives, etc etc. But wall street screwed those people as well. The simple fact is that neither you or I have ever been so outraged about something that we've taken it to the streets, because I'm guessing we've never had something to be so outraged about. I don't even know how many activists and demonstrators there are in the country, maybe tens of thousands? Tens of thousands of people that are THAT angry are not a group of people that we can expect to be totally reasonable and peaceful 100%. Its our job, as people who are more level headed, as well as the job of the police to start re-examining the justice system and probably police tactics/training as well. That's all that I want to see happen. And that's why I think our debate here is unnecessary, because I think that is something that you can agree to as well. *crosses fingers*

23 minutes ago, l3ubba said:

 

And in this video the police are just sitting there taking it. They aren't even doing anything back. These protesters are blocking the interstate and throwing fireworks at the cops and the cops just stand there and take it.

 

They can't do anything to stop these "peaceful protests" because MSM will twist it to make it seem like the cops started acting violent towards the "peaceful protesters" 

Honestly if they want to act like this one of these days they'll go out to "protest" and the US army will be on the streets and it will be all thanks to these dumbasses. There wont be anymore destruction of government property because unfortunately you can destroy a Bradly Fighting Vehicle with a firebomb

 

8 hours ago, Riley24 said:

Managed to find a picture of that narrator

http://storage.akamai.coub.com/get/b77/p/coub/simple/cw_image/6f80bb692f3/c4eac182d3599cbb184a4/timeline_1446601179_00021.jpg

And I'm actually going to wrap this debate up, because it seems like its unnecessary. I largely agree with almost all the points you're making. Of course those protesters shouldn't throw fireworks, just as the cops shouldn't launch teargas at journalists. There was no rioting in Dallas, Pittsburgh, or Los Angeles, because those police departments got ahead of the issue and reached out to the community. St. Paul, Ferguson, and Baltimore PD did nothing of the sort. This isn't an issue where one side is totally in the wrong and the other side is totally innocent, I don't think either of us are claiming that's the case. What's infinitely more important than rounding up protesters is fixing the system that they're protesting in the first place. People did it with OWS too, they sat around grumbling about how much they hated their tactics and called them dirty hippies, no-lives, etc etc. But wall street screwed those people as well. The simple fact is that neither you or I have ever been so outraged about something that we've taken it to the streets, because I'm guessing we've never had something to be so outraged about. I don't even know how many activists and demonstrators there are in the country, maybe tens of thousands? Tens of thousands of people that are THAT angry are not a group of people that we can expect to be totally reasonable and peaceful 100%. Its our job, as people who are more level headed, as well as the job of the police to start re-examining the justice system and probably police tactics/training as well. That's all that I want to see happen. And that's why I think our debate here is unnecessary, because I think that is something that you can agree to as well. *crosses fingers*

Lol, that seems to be an accurate picture.

On this historic day, let it be known that Riley24 and l3ubba have finally agreed on something. I declare July 10th a national holiday! But on a serious note to everything you said...yes. (You are probably going to open up your notification tab and say "Shit! Another reply from l3ubba!" lol)

Edited July 11, 20169 yr by l3ubba

8 hours ago, officerAMR said:

They can't do anything to stop these "peaceful protests" because MSM will twist it to make it seem like the cops started acting violent towards the "peaceful protesters" 

Honestly if they want to act like this one of these days they'll go out to "protest" and the US army will be on the streets and it will be all thanks to these dumbasses. There wont be anymore destruction of government property because unfortunately you can destroy a Bradly Fighting Vehicle with a firebomb

 

Well, you see a firebomb might scratch the paint

15 hours ago, l3ubba said:

Lol, that seems to be an accurate picture.

On this historic day, let it be known that Riley24 and l3ubba have finally agreed on something. I declare July 10th a national holiday! But on a serious note to everything you said...yes. (You are probably going to open up your notification tab and say "Shit! Another reply from l3ubba!" lol)

A historic day indeed! I think like most people online, we get wrapped up in the thrill of the debate and forget we actually agree on most things.

On 7/9/2016 at 8:03 AM, Riley24 said:

BLM does not have membership, no one at the rallies is a member. People just come together and unite under a common cause. No one carries membership cards. Within that group there are many different kinds of people. The vast majority are peaceful protesters. Then there are intellectuals, preachers, even former cops. Of course there some that cause trouble, but why should that be all that we focus on, and never talk about the good? It is fact that some people at BLM protests cause trouble. It is fact that some people take BLM protests too far. But if they don't have membership, it is unfair to say that that represents the movement as a whole. You have to stop at those two facts there.

People are pissed off, and can you honestly blame them? Society has basically told them that their lives don't matter. It's not the fault of white people, it's not the fault of all cops. Talk to any intellectual at a BLM protest and they'll tell you that. It's society. If you don't understand WHY they're in the streets, of course it would be hard to have a fair understanding of them. Many people here don't, they still don't get it. All I'm saying is to understand their message and appreciate the fact that they've been overwhelmingly peaceful. Not smear them as something they're not because of some people that cause members.

Yes BLM does have membership.

http://blacklivesmatter.com/find-chapters/

'Card carrying member' is a figure of speech, not to be used literally in this instance. The point I was trying to get across is that few, if any of these people who attend these protests or riots are actual members of BLM. Regarding coverage, I could ask you the same question about police shootings caught on tape and aired on the news vs. the heroic or saintly things they do each day. I would argue with BLM however, that the bad is outweighing the good as the hostility levels between civilians and the police in this country is at an all-time high due to this movement spreading via social media. I don't think that's unfair at all to lump these troublemakers at BLM protests in with BLM themselves, because they cite BLM's cause(s) for their motivation of instigating riots, or killing cops, or spreading hate over the internet, or blocking the road ways at random so children trying to get to St. Jude's Hospital can't get through.

http://patriottribune.com/43651/blm-block-child-st-jude-hospital/

Can I blame people for "being pissed off" and then behaving like this? Yes. This is the year 2016, and we're supposed to be the most advanced form of life on this planet, in a country that's supposedly the greatest in the world, and here we are in the U.S., with millions of morons who can't figure out that you need to use the political system to get political policies passed. Yelling at people on Facebook, posting like a know-it-all on YouTube police body cam videos, blocking the road ways with your bodies and rioting in large cites isn't going to help much with changing laws or getting stiffer penalties put in place for using force. This whole thing has turned into a big excuse to cause chaos. If people really wanted stuff to get done, they could properly organize themselves into an activist group that can get some laws passed or at least elect the right people to do so.

And an intellectual at a BLM protest? Those guys in jorts with their shirts off, and a bandanna over their faces in the middle of the freeways are not intellectuals.

That lady who "shut **** down", is not an intellectual. The closest people to that description would be the people who organized the protests, and I would still highly question the judgement of somebody who thinks blocking 70mph traffic with human bodies is a good idea.

I appreciate the movement's cause, I appreciate their efforts, and I appreciate that they want to make a difference and instigate change; but I don't see any effort to reel back the nitwits among their ranks who are causing all the trouble, or educating people who have ill-will towards police or white people for the incorrect reasons or no reasons at all. BLM stands back and lets it happen; they act as a catalyst, as I mentioned earlier, for these riots, these shootings, these obstructive protests.

An alternate view on this subject that everyone here on both sides of the BLM issue may consider interesting would be this man's post on Facebook:

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-36777582

BBC News calls it "The Black Cop Who Has a Problem With 'BLM'"

He was quoted as saying "Black lives do not matter to most black people, only the lives of those taken at the hands of cops or white people matter."

I suggest everybody give it a read, not just you or anyone specifically. It's a viewpoint very few, if any people on this forum can give us.

Edited July 14, 20169 yr by unr3al

12 minutes ago, unr3al said:

 

I've spend a good amount of time responding to everyone about BLM. I've made all the points I'd like to make, refer to my other posts.