Like a wise man once said

 

"Torture is meanless as a way of extracting information. Torture is done for the person doing the torturing or the person giving orders to the person torturing." Trevor Phillips, 2013.

 

Joking aside, torture is always going to be done. It is an effective way of getting information and any government, CIA or not will likely use it as it is a good way of getting info from terrorists, spies etc. Although it is wrong. Maybe we can find a more effective way to "interrogate" terrorists.

I agree, there should be a much more effective way of getting information rather than just torturing somebody. 

 I agree, I just wish the CIA would do a better job at keeping it confidential. Do what's necessary to keep our country safe, but don't tell us what you're doing otherwise it will be judged by the public.

 

psh yeah whatever keeps our country "safe" those who trade liberty for security deserve NEITHER bet you didn't know that bin laden was a cia asset and that al queda was created by the cia....what happens when the government decides to label patriots Christians terrorists? will torture still be ok? this site is full immoral people yet they claim to be for justice...yeah okay but that's not a surprise considering you have criminal in your user name

Yes, because we should throw away rights in "certain" cases like the stupid "National Security" reason...Just like we should allow our own government to spy on us and gather irreverent intelligence on us on our day to day lives to help "protect" us from ourselves with no right, or valid reason. Once we start giving up our rights, it's a long slippery slope to losing pretty much all of them. (I'm not saying we should over throw the government or start a civil was...i'm just saying use some common sense)

 

Actually....not gonna lie....torture is a VERY good way to gather information....is it right....no....is it needed in very rare times...yes.

This is about torture, I don't see the correlation to the NSA or gathering info from citizens. Maybe I am not getting your point?

Another talking point about this whole report is that most of what the US does is psychological and much more humane than what other third world countries due to their prisoners.

 

Think about it. Waterboarding is perhaps one of the worst things they did. However when you compare it to other countries methods: say Africa where they routinely chop off family members limbs and eventually kill them just for information. Our technique isn't that awful. Or Iran/Iraq where they are known to put sharpened sticks underneath your fingernails. Or Japan during World War II where they would march you for hundreds of miles and routinely beat you along the way. 

 

Am I saying that what the CIA did is right? No but as has been said before it's on a case by case basis. Osama's 2nd Lieutenant is in your custody and he has just planted a dirty bomb somewhere in Manhattan. You caught him right after he planted it but you don't know where. Is waterboarding acceptable? If it's not what are you going to do to obtain the information?

 

It's real easy to criticize something that's ugly but until you offer a more viable alternative what choice do you have?

 

Also where is the backlash to the politicians, who were told that this report would probably cause a backlash and possibly an attack harming Americans and they just decide to release it anyway? The only thing that has saved them is that there hasn't been another attack yet. I'm personally more angry at the politicians airing our dirty laundry to the world and inviting more people to hate and harm us.   

psh yeah whatever keeps our country "safe" those who trade liberty for security deserve NEITHER bet you didn't know that bin laden was a cia asset and that al queda was created by the cia....what happens when the government decides to label patriots Christians terrorists? will torture still be ok? this site is full immoral people yet they claim to be for justice...yeah okay but that's not a surprise considering you have criminal in your user name

I can tell you're just another one of those lunatic conspirators that probably believe that 9/11 was done by the government. You don't provide any proof, any sources, any links, any logical explanations or evidence to your "observations". As far as I can tell, you've been brainwashed by the American news media; and on-top of that, what's even more frightening is the fact that people actually agree with you.

 

Abusive content removed. While you may not agree with tz71, there is no need whatsoever to call him a "stupid shit". Please be more courteous in the future. ~Illusionary

Edited December 12, 201411 yr by Illusionary
Removed abusive content.

This is about torture, I don't see the correlation to the NSA or gathering info from citizens. Maybe I am not getting your point?

 

You didn't understand what I posted did you....let me better clarify....CIA says they do all this to "protect us"...NSA says they do what they do to "protect us"....and the fact of the matter is us, the American people allow it to happen. As long as it has no effect with our day to day lives....we just don't care what they do. And we allow the federal government to do what they want because we feel they are there to "protect us". And because we feel they are protecting us we seem to think it's okay to give up rights that people (even "suspected" terrorists" have rights...it's called the justice system) in the US  have to better the "security" of the people.

 

Terrorists don't have rights.

 

 

 

EDIT:1000 POSTS :D :D :D :D

 

They don't have any rights...until AFTER they are proven to be terrorist...it's wrong to assume that one is. You wouldn't want to be beaten and tutored for something you didn't do or know about, and then later it's found out you were innocent.

Another thing I want to add. Now, let's say I was a CIA official and I thought you were a terrorist. Congratulations, you just got kidnapped, tortured, and will probably never see your family again. Not so black and white now, is it.

Well first off why do you think I'm a terrorist? Do I know something? If so, fine beat the living daylights out of me. You need the information and I have it. I know I've done wrong and I have accepted that this might happen. Like drinking and driving. I know it's illegal and cops are out to get me, I've accepted it and if it happens it's my fault. Do the CIA pick up innocent people by mistake? Absolutely. In that case......

 

Why are they picking up random people?

 

That is a question of choosing which people rather than interrogation techniques. Entirely different ball game, slightly different argument.

 

 

i have to say i disagree with torture as well. if nothing else because it endangers our troops to the same type of treatment. plus from what i have read we gained absolutely nothing of importance from the techniques :/

If it keeps the US and its citizens safe i'm all for it! when you have terrorist and these goatfuckers cutting peoples heads off and killing hundreds of innocents, let me get my water bucket...

 

This is just a stupid and blind patriotic perspective though. 

 

Look, as distressing as that incident clearly was, there's a simple moral undertone to this.  The US goes to great lengths to portray itself as being a hero, as being the leader of the free world, as being a model for democracy and society worldwide... and so on (the list is really extensive).

 

Please compare this to the 'enhanced interrogation techniques' and the many other examples of human rights violations employed by the very same US throughout the world, throughout presidencies, throughout generations.  Contradictory?  I'd bet anything that many of the prisoners would rather be in a Chinese prison or a Siberian labour camp than a secret CIA dungeon in the middle of Afghanistan.

 

In one sense the release of an actual report and perhaps the beginnings of an investigation into this is a sign that the US maybe isn't as bad as some other states, but in another the damage has been done.  Nobody can realistically expect people or states to get everything right.  But this has been a systematic abuse of the most basic human rights for decades.  Even better is the bit in the Senate report where the conclusion is that all of this was for nothing.

 

And then there's the whole different situation where not only was it, according to the Senate, done for nothing, but it was also often done to people who had done nothing!  Nobody should be able to condone this.  Absolutely nobody - unless you live in one of Dick Cheney's wild fantasies.

 

TLDR: You cannot, without fully admitting your hypocrisy, condemn acts of brutality committed by others when you sponsor, and personally conduct, such acts yourself.  Technically there's no problem with it being your personal belief that torture is fine.  Just, make sure that if this is your belief, you also celebrate it when the same happens to some poor, defenseless US hostage in Iraq.

 

It is 100% indefensible.

This is just a stupid and blind patriotic perspective though. 

 

Look, as distressing as that incident clearly was, there's a simple moral undertone to this.  The US goes to great lengths to portray itself as being a hero, as being the leader of the free world, as being a model for democracy and society worldwide... and so on (the list is really extensive).

 

Please compare this to the 'enhanced interrogation techniques' and the many other examples of human rights violations employed by the very same US throughout the world, throughout presidencies, throughout generations.  Contradictory?  I'd bet anything that many of the prisoners would rather be in a Chinese prison or a Siberian labour camp than a secret CIA dungeon in the middle of Afghanistan.

 

In one sense the release of an actual report and perhaps the beginnings of an investigation into this is a sign that the US maybe isn't as bad as some other states, but in another the damage has been done.  Nobody can realistically expect people or states to get everything right.  But this has been a systematic abuse of the most basic human rights for decades.  Even better is the bit in the Senate report where the conclusion is that all of this was for nothing.

 

And then there's the whole different situation where not only was it, according to the Senate, done for nothing, but it was also often done to people who had done nothing!  Nobody should be able to condone this.  Absolutely nobody - unless you live in one of Dick Cheney's wild fantasies.

 

Spot on. 

 

And just to make a point here, 3,000 people died in the 9/11 attacks.Over 200,000 Iraqis have died since the 2003 invasion. Just a little perspective. 

Edited December 12, 201411 yr by SIR_Sergeant

Another talking point about this whole report is that most of what the US does is psychological and much more humane than what other third world countries due to their prisoners.

 

Think about it. Waterboarding is perhaps one of the worst things they did. However when you compare it to other countries methods: say Africa where they routinely chop off family members limbs and eventually kill them just for information. Our technique isn't that awful. Or Iran/Iraq where they are known to put sharpened sticks underneath your fingernails. Or Japan during World War II where they would march you for hundreds of miles and routinely beat you along the way. 

 

Am I saying that what the CIA did is right? No but as has been said before it's on a case by case basis. Osama's 2nd Lieutenant is in your custody and he has just planted a dirty bomb somewhere in Manhattan. You caught him right after he planted it but you don't know where. Is waterboarding acceptable? If it's not what are you going to do to obtain the information?

 

It's real easy to criticize something that's ugly but until you offer a more viable alternative what choice do you have?

 

Also where is the backlash to the politicians, who were told that this report would probably cause a backlash and possibly an attack harming Americans and they just decide to release it anyway? The only thing that has saved them is that there hasn't been another attack yet. I'm personally more angry at the politicians airing our dirty laundry to the world and inviting more people to hate and harm us.   

 

Another not so well thought out perspective.  "We're not as bad as x or y" Works on paper, not so much in practice.

 

The examples you mentioned are/were:

• Ruled by dictators or warlords
• Brutally governed
• Lacking democratic oversight
• Non developed

Does the US claim to be either of these?  No

Does the US claim to be the very opposite of these: Yes

Does the US use things like this as justification for interfering in the affairs of such states: Yes

Does the US repeatedly condemn human rights violations by other states: Yes

Does the US act like this holy being it claims to be: Well, obviously not according to this Senate report.

 

People here seriously need to understand that a lot of the hatred that exists towards countries like the US and the UK is because of things like this.  It makes for wonderful recruiting media for the very same terrorists that commit atrocities like 9/11 or 7/7.  People generally don't react too well to a big bully saying one thing, while secretly doing the very opposite on a massive scale.

My opinion: don't get yourself in the government's business because you have no right in knowing everything in the fucking world. Hell, I'll use this example - aliens could be spying on us as we speak, but if the government told us about it, we'd flip shit. Further, I'm sure if someone killed your first born child, you'd want them to torture. Terrorists take the lives of our loved ones and now all of a sudden it's "aww, poor terrorist. We shouldn't make him suffer!"? That's bullshit in my opinion. This is becoming a bias against the government. Anything our government does upsets people because they're ignorant fucks who have nothing better to do than bitch about what the government is doing. Enjoy life as it is, don't fantasize about what it could be.

 

</rant>

 Further, I'm sure if someone killed your first born child, you'd want them to torture. Terrorists take the lives of our loved ones and now all of a sudden it's "aww, poor terrorist. We shouldn't make him suffer!"?

 

This is why the victims of crime should never be responsible for the administration of justice.  In most societies built on the rule of law, including the US, this the way it works.  I'm well aware of the difference between domestic and international politics, but there's no reason why a state should see fit to enact justice in a similar fashion.  Terrorists certainly do take the lives of innocent people.  Then again, so do our governments.  What's the difference?  Maybe, that the terrorists are honest about it?!

 

 

 

This is becoming a bias against the government. Anything our government does upsets people because they're ignorant fucks who have nothing better to do than bitch about what the government is doing. Enjoy life as it is, don't fantasize about what it could be.

 

Feel free to move to somewhere like China.  I'm sure you won't have to deal with "ignorant fucks" that question their government there.  Heck, maybe they can put you in kangaroo court and shoot you to death in a sports stadium while they're at it!  Its one of the many benefits we have of living in countries like the US and the UK, and it should never be understated, but people like you really don't help anything.  You can tout American brilliance one moment, then ignore, or even support, American barbarianism the very next.

I can tell you're just another one of those lunatic conspirators that probably believe that 9/11 was done by the government. You don't provide any proof, any sources, any links, any logical explanations or evidence to your "observations". As far as I can tell, you've been brainwashed by the American news media; and on-top of that, what's even more frightening is the fact that people actually agree with you.

 

Abusive content removed. While you may not agree with tz71, there is no need whatsoever to call him a "stupid shit". Please be more courteous in the future. ~Illusionary

 

im not gullible unlike you I believe in justice and the law not lowering myself to a criminal with the torture which is inhumane and a war crime you see we have a ..............court system......and don't get me started on 911 and calling people lunatic conspirators, the government is the lunatic conspirators when they cant provide any facts to back up there conspiracies...and did I read right you said im brainwashed by the media? lol cute...sounds to me youre the one that's brainwashed just by your response you have a low iq and you don't think for yourself 

If we do the same acts as 'they' do, we are equally as bad as 'them'.

 

 

 

 

This is just a stupid and blind patriotic perspective though. 

 

Look, as distressing as that incident clearly was, there's a simple moral undertone to this.  The US goes to great lengths to portray itself as being a hero, as being the leader of the free world, as being a model for democracy and society worldwide... and so on (the list is really extensive).

 

Please compare this to the 'enhanced interrogation techniques' and the many other examples of human rights violations employed by the very same US throughout the world, throughout presidencies, throughout generations.  Contradictory?  I'd bet anything that many of the prisoners would rather be in a Chinese prison or a Siberian labour camp than a secret CIA dungeon in the middle of Afghanistan.

 

In one sense the release of an actual report and perhaps the beginnings of an investigation into this is a sign that the US maybe isn't as bad as some other states, but in another the damage has been done.  Nobody can realistically expect people or states to get everything right.  But this has been a systematic abuse of the most basic human rights for decades.  Even better is the bit in the Senate report where the conclusion is that all of this was for nothing.

 

And then there's the whole different situation where not only was it, according to the Senate, done for nothing, but it was also often done to people who had done nothing!  Nobody should be able to condone this.  Absolutely nobody - unless you live in one of Dick Cheney's wild fantasies.

 

TLDR: You cannot, without fully admitting your hypocrisy, condemn acts of brutality committed by others when you sponsor, and personally conduct, such acts yourself.  Technically there's no problem with it being your personal belief that torture is fine.  Just, make sure that if this is your belief, you also celebrate it when the same happens to some poor, defenseless US hostage in Iraq.

 

It is 100% indefensible.

I was not aware that the torture was conducted on innocents. I would've thought that they would have had solid proof that they were terrorists before they did such things.

 

If this is the case, then yes, I agree with you fully.

---

Also, as a side note, I'm going to ask you to refer to the image I posted again.

 

It says "This is why I don't give a damn how we gathered information from terrorists!"

 

It did not however, say "This is why I don't give a damn that innocents were tortured."

 

I did not at any point say that I condoned the torture of innocent people, but when it comes to legitimate terrorists, people who are ready to kill thousands, if not millions of innocent people, then they do not deserve to have human rights. If they are prepared to take away other people's life, then they should expect to lose theirs. 

 

If they were legitimate terrorists, then I think torture is justified. However, if they are innocent people, then it is not, and I never said that it was.

 

Edited December 12, 201411 yr by AlconH

im not gullible unlike you I believe in justice and the law not lowering myself to a criminal with the torture which is inhumane and a war crime you see we have a ..............court system......and don't get me started on 911 and calling people lunatic conspirators, the government is the lunatic conspirators when they cant provide any facts to back up there conspiracies...and did I read right you said im brainwashed by the media? lol cute...sounds to me youre the one that's brainwashed just by your response you have a low iq and you don't think for yourself 

Come back with some proof or sources on your ridiculous arguments, then we can debate.