Cj24

In theory, it would not be considered stolen. Nobody was ever talking about converted models - scratch-made parts and vehicle had been the issue all the time. Every model is different, even though they might be based on the same thing. Just compare Kevin's and RGXLegend's Caprice front bumpers. They're the only PPV bumper models I've seen so far, based on the same original car, they are both very accurate, yet have obvious differences. Alright, so we have a large start post by Sam stating how the situation changes and that we should simply report images. Yet, staff won't do anything because they aren't experienced enough to see whether two models are the same. I'm actually wondering what we were arguing about? You want us to stop commenting and rather report images, yet you won't deal with any reports? Just because you don't own something, it's not like you didn't do anything. You still spend time on converting and editing. But still, models made by external authors were never the issue, we were talking about scratch-made work. Dodgeboy modeled his Interceptor, Kevin modeled his Caprice bumpers, EVI modeled his hubcaps. Obviously going to help, since according to Nicolai's new rules draft, there's still nothing going to happen. I wish you wouldn't, since I don't like staff insulting people as an "egoistic bunch of immature fools".

I don't see a change to the existing policy, apart from being written down in the guidelines instead of a thread. Requiring permission for anything is no smart move either, since there're enough people that don't want that. Circumventing the ZModeler locking tools being easy isn't true either, there're only a few people doing that. It's basicly always the same guys, yet there're usually always using the same websites whose staff doesn't care. So you don't want to change anything, even though the old system caused many problems? I can only repeat my suggestion: If there's a plausible report including pictures of the poly of the apparently stolen model, you request the author of the picture show the poly of his part. If they're the same or the author doesn't reply, the picture gets removed. If they're not the same, nothing happens, of course. You obviously should always try to keep a proof for permissions. Since I believe this is mostly done via PM though, there shouldn't be any issue.I personally don't know anybody ever revoking permission, unless it's conditions have been violated. If you're giving permission to somebody, you need to be sure about it. It's like with gifts, you won't get it back. That's another problem when terms are not clear. You don't know whether an author did grant the complete rights or not. It's the same like with "normal" permissions.If a MP group can't proof they have the sole permission for deciding about the work, the author likely didn't allow it. While you might want to keep your current draft as standard terms, you definitly need to consider terms for specific mods. That means unless somebody is writing that no permission is required for redistributing or editing, that's the way it is. I don't know if I'm based too much on licenses, it's definitly an easy way to tell the mod's users what to do. Additionally, you definitly need rules for the gallery. It's irresponsible to give thieves a wildcard to show their booty.

I guess it's best simply to stop discussing whether was happend was right or wrong, I don't feel like continuing to defend other's actions. I only hope that your new rules are going to surprise me in a positive way. I still need some more clarification on mods, though: It is never okay to rip and edit, since it's not what the auther wants. You usually have terms like "No redisitributing or editing, textures may be modified". The difference is, if a thief doesn't show anything, nobody knows about that. And how are you supposed to care about something you don't know? I might was too quick when I said I don't care about these guys, it's more like tolerating them because there's no chance to find it out anyways. That's why I said "No public redistributing" - I don't care about people sharing the car with friends or editing skins. As soon as everybody could access it, it is public. I never wanted more than edited textures, as said before. As soon as somebody is ripping a model though, he does not follow the terms and this is immediatly an issue. I, and all modelers agree on that, believe that ripping and "normal" theft are very different things. A ripper is actually using complicated methods to unlock these models and IHMO he doesn't deserve a place in the community then.I think, and that's what I did on my website as well, it's required to enforce the modder's terms. If somebody finds violations, he should be allowed to report it and have staff look into it. It's usually as simple as comparing two files or place a deadline until a proof of having permission is shown, depending on the violation. Unless is somebody is severly violating these terms, like a ripper or a repeater, I don't think any website penalities are needed. You can solve many things by simply talking to people, while recieving a warning point always gives a bad feeling. When GPM enforced their "No permission needed" policy, many modders left. If you decide mods or certain terms are not your scope, the same is going to happen here, and already has happend here. I think a main problem on LCPDFR.com is the staff. If there were more staff members, especially skilled modders, finding thieves would be a lot easier. For modelers like Kevin or EVI, it is no problem at all to indentify specific parts. This website has a damn large amount of members and a forum is no self-managing website like a social network, you obviously can't do enough because there's not enough manpower. I used to try to release as much unlocked as possible, but majority of modders doesn't want that. The main reason is, as you said, obviously getting the tribute. You don't get anything else, so you'd at least want to be the one getting the recognition, nobody else. Since the community is growing that large, you don't feel like getting much positive feedback anyways, even though you try your best to make your models over average quality.You all need to be honest, who actually reads credits to find the authors of every single part? In the end, for many it's just the one who released the car, even though he might didn't do anything. Keeping a model unlocked to have nobody rip it is like keeping your house open so nobody has to break in and damage something. You rather try to get stronger locks, and if somebody still breaks in, you want the police to get him.

I'm sorry, but I believe publishing private messages to defend yourself and pillory the users is a pretty desperate move, especially because it basicly violates your own rule which says you shouldn't accuse anybody publicly. You were posting that deco didn't have permission for using Dodgeboy's Interceptor in this thread, yet you have no proof and are doing the same things you punished others for. I'm going back to my main statement: This thread is causing a hatred on those involved. What was the cause for the issue? Thieves. Since you don't like the word, let's speak about license violators. While you keep saying ripping is bad, it took you months to start serious investigation, instead modders get warning points. Wait, let's stick to your vocabulary, they got "no harsh punishments". Now thieves are not even the issue anymore, instead there're people saying everything is better if modders stopped caring about their work. Do you seriously think somebody puts their spare time and effort to create something completely free for the community to use and then stops caring? What is going on with the community? Whoever believes modders should not be allowed to protect their work: Stop using mods, you're not worth them. I don't see why we should continue this discussion. There's no move forward, just repeating the same things.

I don't think that it would change anything if all models were unlocked. You'd have either more people simply not releasing their work or forbidding the use of it. While there's no need for ripping, there's still stealing.

That would've been too simple, then. Ripping models is not really different though, those guys just hope nobody notices it and rather believe it's their work. The most recent example although is not the best example, I think. In those pictures you've linked to, no stolen mods were shown. You said that now, but nobody said anything in the last months. I feel like repeating the same sentence over and over in this thread. Because there wasn't much change, the situtation got out of hand. The Interceptor is a very weird topic, since everybody believed Gatekeeper was allowed to give permissions to use the model. We were able to solve it due to having independent modders and staff members. That was one of the advantages of having a small community, because staff actually knew what was going on and could interfere quickly. There are many that actually made the community to what it is now. I think you might be exaggerating a bit when saying they want to control the modding scene. Although it's obvious they'd like to have their opinion count as well. Don't you think it's understandable they like to be in the center of attention? It's the same with LCPDFR, the mod is also considered one of the modding milestones. Exactly, and as soon as somebody posts a picture, he's not improving his own game only. It does, because as soon as they do that, they're not keeping it for themselves. Then, other's are going to notice and then they want action to be taken. There's always the urge of having something exclusively. Actually not even a modding community but a society issue. Though, I'm not sure if it would work better to have no possibility to lock models.

Since you were contacting the modders involved, you did know about the issue. I'm not really sure why it's still needed that somebody tells you why he's posting accusations. That sounds like you were simply giving warnings without even knowing what was going on. And that obviously isn't going to work. A judge listens to both sides of the story. Well, and it worked, didn't it? Staff is finally taking action now. Many people, even then-staff-members, tried to debate the rules before, usually without success. It's not that nobody told you it would simply be possible to remove pictures showing stolen content and deal with the member. But seeing nothing happening, don't you think that'll annoy somebody trying to protect his models? You're talking about missing respect but nobody is going to be respected if he doesn't respect others. Modders say staff isn't respecting the modding community's rules that all websites obey to and they try to find their own way to enforce these rules.In all the years I'm actively using this website, I think I've never seen any staff member was excusing for any unjustified action, either it was ignored or talked down. New features were never included because the old way was considered bad, but not as great as the new one. We've had that discussion many times before. Of course I did recognize it. I'm going to repeat that it's not my intention to protect JokerMods or deco, but I'm talking about the past, I'm talking about pictures showing Kevin's Caprice bumper, Dodgeboy's Interceptor or EVI's hubcaps. We don't need to argue that wrong accusations are bad, but it didn't start out of nowhere. In the end, they just seemed to be habit, though. I completely understand that, but you need to understand me as well: LCPDFR.com is considered a modding website, that's why all mods and all modders need to be treated equally. If staff members are testing some mods as well, that's fine, but I don't think using that as an excuse to ignore a very important topic within the community for months is appropriate for such a large website. Other modders were working hard on getting or creating those models. Many consider lots of the current vehicle mods as low quality and don't want others to ruin their work. That's one reason why people don't release unlocked models, apart from the fact you barely get any positive feedback. There're two types of people violating terms of use: The first one, the rippers or thieves, who claim other people's work as theirs and release it. Then, there's a second type, with people who violate terms of use because they simply want to improve their own game. They don't release anything, so nobody knows anything and no action will be taken. To be honest, I don't even care about that second type of thieves. You might want to compare that with watching music videos on YouTube without paying for the song on iTunes, you do it because you like the artist's work, not because you want fame yourself. If a car manufactor uses incorrect parts he'll also get the blame by public, although the issue might be caused by a different company. That is a disadvantage of publishing anything. It's a large community, involving it into the editing of terms of use might be no bad idea. Simply show a submittal and ask for criticism, and most important, follow the community's advise. I've seen that work on plenty websites. You can't let 10 people decide what 100,000 would like to have. Good luck having fun when you see people claiming credit for another's work.

There's a difference between forgetting somebody or intentionally ripping models or using people's work with permission.But to make you happy, you might want to know that this is why Kevin, EVI and I stopped releasing. That's not even close to the topic of this debate. Exactly, "should" be done, not must be done. That's the difference between rules and guidelines. No need for quibbling though. Yes, I know. That happend some time after the whole problem started growing. Using the LCPDFR mod as an excuse for the whole staff being tied up with business makes me believe LCPDFR.com is no modding website, but a mod website. As I mentionied, I know about the suspensions and PMs. Also, as I said as well, that already happend at the peak of the situation. You don't need to, you could have simply asked the author of the picture about a better picture of the vehicle's polygons and it would have been clear. But as I said in another post, you don't want to suspect anybody without having a completely obvious proof. I guess in real life, with police working that way, no criminal could be arrested. I'm sorry, but this sentence is just confirming my point of view. No criticsm or advise is wanted. Although I'm trying to stay calm and polite and give you advise, you're criticising me personally. Although I don't plan on start insulting, I'm definitly not going to restrain my honest opinion now anymore, as you might have noticed. You think so, the modders don't. That's why they're gone.

In this case it's more like 'it's not how you say it, but who says it'. Let me tell you, "that guy" did more than just posting these few pictures. To name a few examples, there were pictures of Dodgeboy's Interceptor which has been converted without permission, there were pictures of hubcaps and bumpers, both were unique models that had been recognized by their creators. The majority of the community won't understand what it means to create a mod, in these case even models like whole vehicles. Don't think the allegations had no reason. I'm not trying defend deco's or JokerMods' actions, I'm trying to let you understand them and what happend before. I actually don't even care about this case in particular, I don't want a specific member to look completely innocent, although he is not. Which rules have been broken? The issue were the public accusations, yet that's what's happening in this thread here as well, but carried out by staff. Your guidelines state "abusing, teasing, demeaning, 'flaming' or 'trolling'" are forbidden, yet these words purely depend on interpretation. You don't even call them rules but guidelines. Unlike rules, guidelines usually aren't even mandatory. I do understand that you don't want people to break the rules that aren't clearly written down, but I want you to understand that your rules were unrightful in many people's eyes. LCPDFR wants to be a modding website and therefore needs to protect modders against thieves. You're speaking about "some" gallery images, but if one single person keeps posting models obviously belonging to other authors, it is provoking and staff should take action. As I said before, I've talked to quite a few of the people involved. I do agree with you that nothing changed. I know at least three people who tried to help you improve your rules and tell you what's their issue with the pictures, yet, as far as I know, every advise has been blocked, since you didn't want to cause any unverifiable suspicions. I've already had this discussion with Sam, I don't need to repeat it. What do you expect people to do, if they get warnings for their comments and get told staff is thinking about a better idea? They obviously won't like the fact nothing changes for months. As I've said before, many modders left LCPDFR.com and went to other websites. They don't care about getting more warnings because they don't use that page anyways. Of course you can always say that they violated the rules and should just go somewhere else. Then they're called childish because they simply follow that advise. You can try to make your community fit your rules and ban every third member, or you make your rules fit your community.

This basicly just sounds like a hate-thread against those trying to defend a modder's work. People didn't report those pictures anymore because staff was simply not doing anything. Pictures with ripped models weren't the cause for any action, nothing happend until somebody released stolen mods. So what happenend next? Modders, who tried to stick together against thieves obviously at least wanted the public to know about stolen mods and therefore commented on these images. Comments like these were removed and people were warned, which is obviously giving the feeling of staff protecting rippers. For a vehicle modder or modeler, it is often very simple to recognize a specific part, there actually were no unjustified accusations. In the end, there were heaps of pissed off modders as well as pissed off staff. There were comments that simply asked about a model's author or polite, yet stingingly sarcastic comments about how great other people's work looks. Any comment similar to these was removed, even though, if it was posted by somebody else than the usual suspects, it might would have been alright. It is in my opinion it's no wonder that the situation escalated. This just reminds of the situation we had some years ago, when obviously stolen mods uploaded to the database weren't removed, unless the author reported it. Unless you're really showing action will be taken, people probably won't calm down again, and since some got a large amount of warnings or even had their accounts banned, this is not simply going to be forgotten. It kind of seems like nowadays, almost all of the better known car modders left this site. @Sam: When I asked you why people got warnings for their comments, you said you didn't like public accusing, yet you're now publicly stiring hatred up against those commenting the picture in your screenshot. Maybe it wasn't even your intention, but reading other people's posts here, this is what your screenshot did. This is my opinion as somebody who tried to stay out of that fight but still knows both sides of the story. I've talked to people who got warning points or even bans because of those comments, as well as Sam about trying to find a proper rule to take action against rippers.