Cj24

I'm sorry that some parts and quotes might be a bit too long and incoherent, I had to go from 17 to 10 quotes as I'm not allowed to do more. These are all things that were mentioned already way before. I just remember when you published the rule posting mods hosted on different websites is forbidden, people were complaining that this is not the way a liberal modding website should go. I won't go into that in-depth, but it's another example of suggestions and criticism that failed and this gave the feeling staff simply ignores them.It's not going to be considered stolen, nobody ever said it does. There're a very managable amount of modelers capable of scratch-modeling. Nobody ever accused an author for simply having a good car, there were always obviously similar parts. You know how you find out which models are the same? You look for mistakes. Kevin's Caprice bumper had too small corners, unlike TraumaPak's. Jaytee posted a picture of a bumper with exactly the same wrong corners. Same with EVI's Interceptor rims, which are more rounded than the original one. You simply notice the difference, if you know what you're looking for. I don't know any member that left this site because he was wrongly accused. They could have reported pictures, but they knew nothing changed. It's one of the arguments I keep repeating. I don't need to realize this anymore, I realized this a long ago already. The problem is, you don't get any new staff members. The idea of taking modders into your time was brought up by both modders and staff members, yet all tries to do that failed quite some time ago already. Another example of suggestions not changing anything. Why don't need to argue about whether that was wrong. I'm just saying that it was provoked in their eyes. I've written it many times before, you get the feelings ideas are turned down anyways. Do you actually expect people are going to tell you something is wrong with theft and comments in the gallery? You obviously noticed that before. I think I don't need to address this again, I think I've mentioned my opinion above. I'm reading and understand every single post in this thread, there's simply no need to repeat every counter-argument if it has been mentioned before. I've told you why I believe your new rules won't change anything. They don't follow orders given by moderators because they're not publicly written down anywhere. They're also not following orders because they feel like being treated unfairly.I know of a case where a website's owner was sued because we was moving in against actions not covered by their terms of use, so that is definitly a problem. I guess I'm just too spoiled by wide-ranging european and german laws. People you believe you protect obvious rippers against any form of action, I don't think I need to repeat that again. I've mentioned it before: We always had the feeling of feedback being ignored. On a large website like this one, you never have the feeling that one single member is on par with the website's administration.This is exactly the problem. There're large background problems, until they're solved, I don't expect much change. You want suggestions, don't you? I don't agree with your opinion and I tell you why. I don't believe many members are actually following this whole discussion indepth. You want common understandling for acting differently, yet you don't seem to act differently either. This is what I'm talking about, nothing is changing. You already posted the draft of the new rules concerning mods, you've even written nothing has changed. I actually believe recieving a warning point is already a punishment, since it's something that you won't lose anymore, unlike an instruction. I do agree. Would you like me to repeat my suggestion concerning how to moderate the gallery? I don't think anyone else has posted another proposal.We also need to agree though that you need to change your rules. On such a large website, you need to replace these general guidelines with more specific rules and terms of use that aren't legally vulnerable. If you write everything down, you can refer to the paragraph forbidding public accusations in any form. You also need to write that you cannot support theft in any way and that you will start investigating in case of a violation against that. It's already a good thing you're reorganising your forums, the old new structure caused exactly the issues I believed it would, but I'm being honest now: I don't remember telling staff about that, I completely left modding and the community in that time though.

I understood what you were saying, I was still going into what you've written. I was just saying that many people don't give suggestions because they believe nothing changes anyways. Nicolai said the guideline violation in the specific picture shown above was Obstruction and Interference. All that was done though was asking for proper credits and you confirmed public theft accusations are not allowed. My point is, is correcting credits actually to be put on the same level as saying something is ripped? The quoted guideline paragraph is basicly just saying you need to follow the guidelines, yet the guidelines say nothing about accusations. Or is it considered interfering because of doing the moderator's job?

You would expect that, but it seems like nobody actually wants to do quality work. When I was still having my own website, I checked many uploaded mods in terms of quality, you always had the same mistakes: Incorrect materials and missing or wrong LODs. People do care more about adding more and more details, yet there're more and more bugs. Yet it's not going to change anything so far for the developer. That's why I say you need rules for the gallery as well. Again, my own website, that rule was working just fine. Whenever there was an obvious resemblance, we contacted the author of the picture. If the user was able to prove the suspicion wrong, everything was settled or we were sure we dealt with a thief. I see there're many threads getting closed immediatly for being in the wrong category or comments being removed for whatever reason, what's the issue with taking action against pictures then? Even only removing them is already a progress compared to the current situation. Yet they are not written down in your guidelines. If asking for credits is considered "interference and obstruction", there'll be many people to warn in the filebase. I'm trying, yet all my suggestions are rejected and in the end, nothing is going to change with the new rules. Now I am being criticized. I guess you understand why many people believe that you bite on granite when trying to debate against staff on LCPDFR.

I've also read that expressions very often: It's just made by somebody, else you're just copying it. Again: It's done because that's expected by the community. That's what many people appreciate, they can replace the default vehicles with some high quality real life cars.There's a difference between taking a model made by some different author or scratch-modeling a whole vehicle accurately, perfectly fitted for GTA. If you ignore it, how do you expect anything to change? Theft is always a main problem in all modding communities, they all try to find a way to get around that. I know another community creating public lists of people not being allowed to use specific mods and then let staff enforce it. Do you think that is a better way? Commenting is a lot faster though, and, more important, you want people to know about the actual credits immediatly, you don't want to wait until the user might do that himself. But knowing the doggedness of that specific person, talking to him personally is not going to change anything. Knowing what staff does about ripped models in the gallery, reporting is not going to cause anything. You rather want to warn other people that this mod is not his work, although he says so.

Why do you expect people to report everything immediatly? Shouldn't Kevin and EVI be allowed to ask for credits themselves instead of immediatly reporting the picture? Since the comments and the picture are gone, they obviously noticed it anyways.

Many people posting in this thread have no knowledge of anything that happend before this thread all. I've already said that in the first post I've made in this topic. Where do you see any attacks on users? I'm not talking about the PMs which were directed at staff members after the whole situation escalated. Almost all accusations that happend before the growth of this situation were justified, IMO. I know EVI is the only one who modeled Caprice hubcaps so far and I expect him to be able to recognize them if somebody else is posting a picture. I expect Kevin to differentiate TraumaPak's and his own bumper, especially because there're details that can be easily seen. Even Sam agreed on that.To be honest, the staff on this website works in a very non-de-escalating way. There're often as much accusations and insults on both sides, just take the comments on the picture linked in the first post. And seeing comments like "Ignore who steals your models, I don't care as long as more of them are released, no matter who does" just makes me go very angry. I've mentioned my opinion about these type of people before. I'm also sick of those people saying "It's not your work either, you're just copying reallife parts". Yes, we do, because that's what people want. Just don't forget that mods and therefore modders made this website grow.

I actually always thought people knew what time, effort and experience it takes to create parts or even whole vehicles from scratch. I've mentioned it before, since almost everybody is able to put some unlocked lightbar on an unlocked model, there's no respect for modders anymore. Even though actually modeling parts is far from putting them together.I said it before, we're creating these mods in our freetime and release them publicly without wanting anything back, often not even vehicles we're using ourselfs and only did because we've seen the interest. If people steal your work, getting the recognition for it, you're getting annoyed. As I said in an earlier post, the whole situation escalated after quite some time. The one specific user, that had it account deleted now, was posting pictures of Dodgeboy's Ford Taurus some months ago. Since there were permission issues on my own website as well, we knew Dodgeboy didn't grant permission for him to convert or use it. Since he didn't recieve the model from Gatekeeper, who handed them out before, it was obviously ripped, so people commented on that picture saying exactly this. If I remember correctly, at that time staff didn't interfere. The person continued posting more pictures showing that model, ignoring all comments. I've been told by at least two other guys that they did report the picture. The comments were getting harsher in the end and were removed, later warnings were issued as well. Since people have been told they shouldn't attack that user, some went back to a more polite way: Telling them he's going great showing other people's work. These comments were removed. The amount of pictures posted by that person increased in these few days, so people did more comments and recieved more warnings, some even temporary bans. One other person asked about credits in the same discussion, resulting in his comment being removed as well. For him and many others, it looked like arbitrariness and since the author of the pictures was simply continuing, it looked like staff was protecting rippers. Hate on the rippers increased, hate on staff increased, resulting in the loss of respect against them mentioned by Nicolai.I cannot give you specific examples, since all of the pictures mentioned above have been taken down since. I already mentioned which parts I definitly recognized though.

They don't use it as an excuse to attack. They're not even attacking, they're blaming others, because they'd like to be able to control their work. What are you supposed to do if staff doesn't help you? I was never supporting the accustions that happend in the last week, they were obviously unjustified. We had obvious cases of theft in the past though without anybody insulting anybody, yet those comments were removed.

That's what I'm talking about, while these offends are not appropriate for a normal member, they'd be definitly unappropriate for a staff member. Yet you don't have a solution so far. That'll only give the feeling of you not doing anything again. I've never said it's alright to break rules. The rule that public accusations are forbidden although is only written down publicly for a short amount of time, instead we should report images. Then we're just doing that whole problem again, people are reporting those images and nothing happens. They comment it is stolen, they get punishments. You see why this is considered censorship and protecting rippers? A person not doing anything wrong won't have access to these specific models. If somebody is really posting a different model suddenly, he can simply prove it by showing its poly. Showcasing mods with links to other pages is already forbidden anyways.I don't see why that's simple though, since it'll course many work for staff and it's affecting "normal users that do nothing wrong" even more than a rule against ripped models. I actually don't see why anybody would have an issue with that. If there's really once a confusion of two models, a user can simply prove it is his by showing the poly.

In theory, it would not be considered stolen. Nobody was ever talking about converted models - scratch-made parts and vehicle had been the issue all the time. Every model is different, even though they might be based on the same thing. Just compare Kevin's and RGXLegend's Caprice front bumpers. They're the only PPV bumper models I've seen so far, based on the same original car, they are both very accurate, yet have obvious differences. Alright, so we have a large start post by Sam stating how the situation changes and that we should simply report images. Yet, staff won't do anything because they aren't experienced enough to see whether two models are the same. I'm actually wondering what we were arguing about? You want us to stop commenting and rather report images, yet you won't deal with any reports? Just because you don't own something, it's not like you didn't do anything. You still spend time on converting and editing. But still, models made by external authors were never the issue, we were talking about scratch-made work. Dodgeboy modeled his Interceptor, Kevin modeled his Caprice bumpers, EVI modeled his hubcaps. Obviously going to help, since according to Nicolai's new rules draft, there's still nothing going to happen. I wish you wouldn't, since I don't like staff insulting people as an "egoistic bunch of immature fools".

I don't see a change to the existing policy, apart from being written down in the guidelines instead of a thread. Requiring permission for anything is no smart move either, since there're enough people that don't want that. Circumventing the ZModeler locking tools being easy isn't true either, there're only a few people doing that. It's basicly always the same guys, yet there're usually always using the same websites whose staff doesn't care. So you don't want to change anything, even though the old system caused many problems? I can only repeat my suggestion: If there's a plausible report including pictures of the poly of the apparently stolen model, you request the author of the picture show the poly of his part. If they're the same or the author doesn't reply, the picture gets removed. If they're not the same, nothing happens, of course. You obviously should always try to keep a proof for permissions. Since I believe this is mostly done via PM though, there shouldn't be any issue.I personally don't know anybody ever revoking permission, unless it's conditions have been violated. If you're giving permission to somebody, you need to be sure about it. It's like with gifts, you won't get it back. That's another problem when terms are not clear. You don't know whether an author did grant the complete rights or not. It's the same like with "normal" permissions.If a MP group can't proof they have the sole permission for deciding about the work, the author likely didn't allow it. While you might want to keep your current draft as standard terms, you definitly need to consider terms for specific mods. That means unless somebody is writing that no permission is required for redistributing or editing, that's the way it is. I don't know if I'm based too much on licenses, it's definitly an easy way to tell the mod's users what to do. Additionally, you definitly need rules for the gallery. It's irresponsible to give thieves a wildcard to show their booty.

I guess it's best simply to stop discussing whether was happend was right or wrong, I don't feel like continuing to defend other's actions. I only hope that your new rules are going to surprise me in a positive way. I still need some more clarification on mods, though: It is never okay to rip and edit, since it's not what the auther wants. You usually have terms like "No redisitributing or editing, textures may be modified". The difference is, if a thief doesn't show anything, nobody knows about that. And how are you supposed to care about something you don't know? I might was too quick when I said I don't care about these guys, it's more like tolerating them because there's no chance to find it out anyways. That's why I said "No public redistributing" - I don't care about people sharing the car with friends or editing skins. As soon as everybody could access it, it is public. I never wanted more than edited textures, as said before. As soon as somebody is ripping a model though, he does not follow the terms and this is immediatly an issue. I, and all modelers agree on that, believe that ripping and "normal" theft are very different things. A ripper is actually using complicated methods to unlock these models and IHMO he doesn't deserve a place in the community then.I think, and that's what I did on my website as well, it's required to enforce the modder's terms. If somebody finds violations, he should be allowed to report it and have staff look into it. It's usually as simple as comparing two files or place a deadline until a proof of having permission is shown, depending on the violation. Unless is somebody is severly violating these terms, like a ripper or a repeater, I don't think any website penalities are needed. You can solve many things by simply talking to people, while recieving a warning point always gives a bad feeling. When GPM enforced their "No permission needed" policy, many modders left. If you decide mods or certain terms are not your scope, the same is going to happen here, and already has happend here. I think a main problem on LCPDFR.com is the staff. If there were more staff members, especially skilled modders, finding thieves would be a lot easier. For modelers like Kevin or EVI, it is no problem at all to indentify specific parts. This website has a damn large amount of members and a forum is no self-managing website like a social network, you obviously can't do enough because there's not enough manpower. I used to try to release as much unlocked as possible, but majority of modders doesn't want that. The main reason is, as you said, obviously getting the tribute. You don't get anything else, so you'd at least want to be the one getting the recognition, nobody else. Since the community is growing that large, you don't feel like getting much positive feedback anyways, even though you try your best to make your models over average quality.You all need to be honest, who actually reads credits to find the authors of every single part? In the end, for many it's just the one who released the car, even though he might didn't do anything. Keeping a model unlocked to have nobody rip it is like keeping your house open so nobody has to break in and damage something. You rather try to get stronger locks, and if somebody still breaks in, you want the police to get him.

I'm sorry, but I believe publishing private messages to defend yourself and pillory the users is a pretty desperate move, especially because it basicly violates your own rule which says you shouldn't accuse anybody publicly. You were posting that deco didn't have permission for using Dodgeboy's Interceptor in this thread, yet you have no proof and are doing the same things you punished others for. I'm going back to my main statement: This thread is causing a hatred on those involved. What was the cause for the issue? Thieves. Since you don't like the word, let's speak about license violators. While you keep saying ripping is bad, it took you months to start serious investigation, instead modders get warning points. Wait, let's stick to your vocabulary, they got "no harsh punishments". Now thieves are not even the issue anymore, instead there're people saying everything is better if modders stopped caring about their work. Do you seriously think somebody puts their spare time and effort to create something completely free for the community to use and then stops caring? What is going on with the community? Whoever believes modders should not be allowed to protect their work: Stop using mods, you're not worth them. I don't see why we should continue this discussion. There's no move forward, just repeating the same things.

I don't think that it would change anything if all models were unlocked. You'd have either more people simply not releasing their work or forbidding the use of it. While there's no need for ripping, there's still stealing.

That would've been too simple, then. Ripping models is not really different though, those guys just hope nobody notices it and rather believe it's their work. The most recent example although is not the best example, I think. In those pictures you've linked to, no stolen mods were shown. You said that now, but nobody said anything in the last months. I feel like repeating the same sentence over and over in this thread. Because there wasn't much change, the situtation got out of hand. The Interceptor is a very weird topic, since everybody believed Gatekeeper was allowed to give permissions to use the model. We were able to solve it due to having independent modders and staff members. That was one of the advantages of having a small community, because staff actually knew what was going on and could interfere quickly. There are many that actually made the community to what it is now. I think you might be exaggerating a bit when saying they want to control the modding scene. Although it's obvious they'd like to have their opinion count as well. Don't you think it's understandable they like to be in the center of attention? It's the same with LCPDFR, the mod is also considered one of the modding milestones. Exactly, and as soon as somebody posts a picture, he's not improving his own game only. It does, because as soon as they do that, they're not keeping it for themselves. Then, other's are going to notice and then they want action to be taken. There's always the urge of having something exclusively. Actually not even a modding community but a society issue. Though, I'm not sure if it would work better to have no possibility to lock models.

Since you were contacting the modders involved, you did know about the issue. I'm not really sure why it's still needed that somebody tells you why he's posting accusations. That sounds like you were simply giving warnings without even knowing what was going on. And that obviously isn't going to work. A judge listens to both sides of the story. Well, and it worked, didn't it? Staff is finally taking action now. Many people, even then-staff-members, tried to debate the rules before, usually without success. It's not that nobody told you it would simply be possible to remove pictures showing stolen content and deal with the member. But seeing nothing happening, don't you think that'll annoy somebody trying to protect his models? You're talking about missing respect but nobody is going to be respected if he doesn't respect others. Modders say staff isn't respecting the modding community's rules that all websites obey to and they try to find their own way to enforce these rules.In all the years I'm actively using this website, I think I've never seen any staff member was excusing for any unjustified action, either it was ignored or talked down. New features were never included because the old way was considered bad, but not as great as the new one. We've had that discussion many times before. Of course I did recognize it. I'm going to repeat that it's not my intention to protect JokerMods or deco, but I'm talking about the past, I'm talking about pictures showing Kevin's Caprice bumper, Dodgeboy's Interceptor or EVI's hubcaps. We don't need to argue that wrong accusations are bad, but it didn't start out of nowhere. In the end, they just seemed to be habit, though. I completely understand that, but you need to understand me as well: LCPDFR.com is considered a modding website, that's why all mods and all modders need to be treated equally. If staff members are testing some mods as well, that's fine, but I don't think using that as an excuse to ignore a very important topic within the community for months is appropriate for such a large website. Other modders were working hard on getting or creating those models. Many consider lots of the current vehicle mods as low quality and don't want others to ruin their work. That's one reason why people don't release unlocked models, apart from the fact you barely get any positive feedback. There're two types of people violating terms of use: The first one, the rippers or thieves, who claim other people's work as theirs and release it. Then, there's a second type, with people who violate terms of use because they simply want to improve their own game. They don't release anything, so nobody knows anything and no action will be taken. To be honest, I don't even care about that second type of thieves. You might want to compare that with watching music videos on YouTube without paying for the song on iTunes, you do it because you like the artist's work, not because you want fame yourself. If a car manufactor uses incorrect parts he'll also get the blame by public, although the issue might be caused by a different company. That is a disadvantage of publishing anything. It's a large community, involving it into the editing of terms of use might be no bad idea. Simply show a submittal and ask for criticism, and most important, follow the community's advise. I've seen that work on plenty websites. You can't let 10 people decide what 100,000 would like to have. Good luck having fun when you see people claiming credit for another's work.