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Middle way between US and Germany?


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Some weeks ago, something happended in Bremen, Germany. There was a party in a private appartment. Later, a group of uninvited people tried to join the party and became agressive and riot in front of the house. So the people inside the appartment called the police. A bit later, somebody was knocking on the door of the apartment again. So the owner of the apartmet decided to take his gas pistol, open the door a bit and shoot outside. But this time, it was the police standing infront of the door. So one of the officers fired 5 shots through the closed door,  injuring a 17 year old girl standing behind it (she survived).

Now, of corse, following german law, the officer is temporally suspended and they investigate this case. Even if i dont think, he will get a punsihment, this summs up the german usage of police weapons: "Always be ready to use your gun to defend yourself and others, but better think twice about it before you shot because you will get into years of trouble for it". In the US, this would be no question I guess. Even if someone died during that "shooting", nobody would have really cares because it was self-defense and thats it. Shit happens. Gone sutpid. 

For me, it feels like, a german police officer has in a sitation like this only the choice between "Defend yourself and get years of trouble" or "Get injured or killed". And this really sucks. We all know the discussion about police beheavior in the US and I guess there are tons of things that go wrong. And I dont say, I would like to have this system in germany aswell. But dont we need kind of a middle way? Because in my mind, one thing is sure: The handeling of events like this in germany is too strict.

What do you guys think about this?

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He gets gased, and as a response five rounds are fired through a door without any sight? Totally deserved punishment if he gets one, it's a reckless usage of his weapon. You don't shoot through a door, when you've no idea who or what is behind it. What if it was terrorists and he had an explosive vest? Boom, all dead. What if it was a mom with its baby held hostage? Boom, dead, or gravely injured. And so on, and those are cases were someone was indeed in danger in the first place.

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So you wouldnt do anything when somebody opens a door infront you and shot from behind it, especially when you dont know what gun it is and you have to assume it is a real one? I can understand your point of view but isnt his reaction just a logical consequence? Isnt the one shoting first guilty?

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Never said the guy using a gas pistol wasn't guilty either, but the police officer who shot blindly definitely doesn't know how to handle a situation like this. The first thing they should have done is opening the door. Or better, why not yelling "POLICE" as they knocked at the door? I don't know, it'd seem like a logical thing to do to me, for those exact reasons. The police officers are just as much at fault there, they didn't act professional at all.

Edited by Hystery
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AFAIK, one of the main things you are taught when being trained in the use of firearms is situational awareness, i.e. knowing what's around you and who will be hit if you fire your weapon.

The officer had no idea what was behind that door, there could've been a toddler or a young infant for all they knew. Plus, a gas pistol doesn't make anywhere near as much noise as a real pistol. It's most definitely clear that it's not a real gun.

The officer should have simply backed up, and called for tactical. Firing blindly through an apartment door is not an appropriate response here.

Sure, the idiot in the apartment shouldn't have shot round the door with his gas pistol, but the police are supposed to be the ones who de-escalate situations and resolve them with the best outcome, something they certainly didn't do here.

Both were at fault, but especially the cop who thought it was a good idea to discharge his weapon blindly into an apartment without thinking.

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Spoiler

 

 

(disregard the commentary and just fast forward to the firing of the pistol)

the video above shows a gas pistol in action, assuming OP wasn't referring to a gas operated bb pistol, this is what it sounds like if you're shot at with a weapon of that sort, implying the weapon didn't have a red tip either, which is fair to assume considering it happened in germany, the gun probably looked like the real deal too.

 

 now i'm not going to argue that identifying yourself as a police officer could've prevented an escalation, though i'm not entirely sure that it didn't happen in the first place and simply wasn't mentioned by OP(?). in any case, it would have been a terrible decision for the officer to try and open the door while he's confronted with an (apparent) madman shooting at him.

 

could argue that it would have been safer to withdraw and call for backup or a tactical team, but self defence was definitely warranted at that point.

 

Edited by Kurzmahole
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1 minute ago, Kurzmahole said:
  Hide contents

 

(disregard the commentary and just fast forward to the firing of the pistol)

the video above shows a gas pistol in action, assuming OP wasn't referring to a gas operated bb pistol, this is what it sounds like if you're shot at with a weapon of that sort, implying the weapon didn't have a red tip either, which is fair to assume considering it happened in germany, the gun probably looked like the real deal too.

If that's what was fired, then I completely agree self defense was justified. I thought he meant a bb pistol since I've never seen what was in that video before. That most definetely looks and sounds like a real gun. Can understand the response completely now.

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1 hour ago, Hystery said:

He gets gased, and as a response five rounds are fired through a door without any sight? Totally deserved punishment if he gets one, it's a reckless usage of his weapon. You don't shoot through a door, when you've no idea who or what is behind it. What if it was terrorists and he had an explosive vest? Boom, all dead. What if it was a mom with its baby held hostage? Boom, dead, or gravely injured. And so on, and those are cases were someone was indeed in danger in the first place.

i really hope you are being sarcastic

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2 hours ago, master1114 said:

For me, it feels like, a german police officer has in a sitation like this only the choice between "Defend yourself and get years of trouble" or "Get injured or killed". And this really sucks.

If any police officer is doing his job like this, he needs to be sacked immediately.

But i'm pretty sure that if a cop even unholsters his firearm here he has to fill out paperwork... If you actually shoot someone, you may as well have an office job. Which may also be a factor in low police shootings. Our cops will try to de-escalate and use non-lethals as much as possible before resorting to the good ol' glock.

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First of all, I didnt thought about using the term "gas pistol" corretly because of language differences. A "Gas Pistol" in germany is a gun that looks like a real one, but its gas-   powered. but nevertheless, these things are extremly dangerous and can injur/kill people easily.

Second: I dont want to justify the reaction of the officer, 5 shots at the door was maybe too much. But in my mind, I prefer the situation went the way it did instead of maybe getting the officers injured. The owner of the weapon did a big misstake and brought all people "behind that door" in danger with his action. imagine you are the officer in front of the door: wouldnt it be like a "him or me"-situation?

 

  •  now i'm not going to argue that identifying yourself as a police officer could've prevented an escalation, though i'm not entirely sure that it didn't happen in the first place and simply wasn't mentioned by OP(?).

-> I dont really know about that. But even if they didnt identify themself as police that doent give anybody the right to shot out of their door.

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1 hour ago, OfficerFive0 said:

i really hope you are being sarcastic

No, I'm not. When you are a police officer carrying a gun, you're expected to know how and when to use your weapon. Do you really, REALLY think that it's entirely normal to empty half a clip into a door without knowing who or what is behind the said door? Without knowing the situation inside? Who is inside, if there are criminals or civilians, if there are hostages or injured people? That's a completely unprofessional behavior, and a dangerous one at that as he was a danger both to the civilians around, his colleagues, and himself.

I stand by the fact that if the police officers shouted "POLICE" when they knocked at the door, all of this wouldn't have happened.

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1 hour ago, Hystery said:

No, I'm not. When you are a police officer carrying a gun, you're expected to know how and when to use your weapon. Do you really, REALLY think that it's entirely normal to empty half a clip into a door without knowing who or what is behind the said door? Without knowing the situation inside? Who is inside, if there are criminals or civilians, if there are hostages or injured people? That's a completely unprofessional behavior, and a dangerous one at that as he was a danger both to the civilians around, his colleagues, and himself.

I stand by the fact that if the police officers shouted "POLICE" when they knocked at the door, all of this wouldn't have happened.

 

the door was briefly opened to a gap and someone fired what looked to be and sounded like a real gun at a police officer within arms reach. i think it's pretty plausible to assume that the officer knew what was behind the door when it popped open and gunfire went off in his face, even if the door was closed afterwards. going by your logic a guy could literally shoot at an officer from behind a corner and the officer shouldn't be allowed to return fire, as he doesn't know every detail of what's going on behind the corner. using firearms is always risky business and potentially dangerous to innocent bystanders, but it's not like there's much room for diplomacy or intricate investigation once the guns come out and the bullets start whizzing past you.

 

with that said, you're not likely going to count your shots when you're trading shots with somebody, nevermind at point blank range. popping off 1 round in a gunfight and hoping for the best is incredibly dangerous. shooting at someone 5 times might sound exaggerated to the general public, but i'd argue that mostly boils down to people not being familar with police tactics and taking what can be seen in movies for granted. 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Kurzmahole said:

 

the door was briefly opened to a gap and someone fired what looked to be and sounded like a real gun at a police officer within arms reach. i think it's pretty plausible to assume that the officer knew what was behind the door when it popped open and gunfire went off in his face, even if the door was closed afterwards. going by your logic a guy could literally shoot at an officer from behind a corner and the officer shouldn't be allowed to return fire, as he doesn't know every detail of what's going on behind the corner. using firearms is always risky business and potentially dangerous to innocent bystanders, but it's not like there's much room for diplomacy or intricate investigation once the guns come out and the bullets start whizzing past you.

 

with that said, you're not likely going to count your shots when you're trading shots with somebody, nevermind at point blank range. popping off 1 round in a gunfight and hoping for the best is incredibly dangerous. shooting at someone 5 times might sound exaggerated to the general public, but i'd argue that mostly boils down to people not being familar with police tactics and taking what can be seen in movies for granted. 

Yeah, he knew so well what was behind the door that he shot a 17 years old girl. Doesn't matter if she survived, he still shot an innocent person because of his blind shots. Be it a gas gun like this one or a real gun, someone whose job is to protect the population should not point his gun and shoot randomly like that. There's no excuse for what happened. Did you watch the video I linked? A gas gun sounds nothing like a real gun. The sound has nothing to do with a detonation made by a real weapon. Sure, you could argue than in the heat of the action, people react quick, but in that case, officers should have either a) knocked the door open or 2) back up and call for reinforcement. Doesn't matter if he thought he was threatened, at the end of the day, he still used his gun recklessly, he still shot without having any sight of who or what he's shooting, and he still shot an innocent girl who just happened to be there because she lived there or was visiting there.

It has nothing to do with a situation where someone shoots an officer around a corner. In that context, the police officer would have VISION of who is shooting and from where and with what, and of course returning fire would be a logical response. Not there. Not in that case in particular.

Edited by Hystery
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17 minutes ago, Hystery said:

Yeah, he knew so well what was behind the door that he shot a 17 years old girl. Doesn't matter if she survived, he still shot an innocent person because of his blind shots. Be it a gas gun like this one or a real gun, someone who's job is to protect the population should not point his gun and shoot randomly like that. There's no excuse for what happened. Did you watc the video I linked? A gas gun sounds nothing like a real gun. The sound has nothing to do with a detonation made by a real weapon. Sure, you could argue than in the heat of the action, people react quick, but in that case, officers should have either a) knocked the door open or 2) back up and call for reinforcement. Doesn't matter if he thought he was threatened, at the end of the day, he still used his gun recklessly, he still shot without having any sight of who or what he's shooting, and he still shot an innocent girl who just happened to be there because she lived there or was visiting there.

It has nothing to do with a situation where someone shoots an officer around a corner. In that context, the police officer would have VISION of who is shooting and from where and with what, and of course returning fire would be a logical response. Not there. Not in that case in particular.

i already mentioned that there's a major difference between a "real" gas gun and gas powered bb guns. my opinion would perhaps slightly change if it were a bb gun, but as far as i'm concerned that wasn't the case here, so not much of a point in discussing that further.

 

you'll have a hard time trying to find an officer that's going to attempt opening a door while someone's literally stood on the other side, shooting.

 

withdraw and call for backup? fair enough. said that'd be an option as well, but i put no blame on an officer for returning fire when he's being shot at. it's extremely unfortunate that someone innocent got injured, but it's the suspect that put himself and the people around him in jeopardy here when he decided to recklessly use a lifelike (and at close range dangerous) weapon.

 

finally, the officer didn't think he was threathened. he was being shot at, with a real weapon. gas pistols are less than lethal weapons, less than lethal far from guaranteed depending on the range they're utilized at.

 

Edited by Kurzmahole
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I acted like that in Counter-Strike and Battlefield, a nice way to clear the room behind a closed door. IRL that situation looks weird at least. Even in my book this is an example of a very poor assessment of the situation. Reflexes like that are useful when you're scouting an occupied city full of armed insurgents, when you have to fight for you life and kill every one who looks at you the wrong way, but in a situation like this it would probably be proper to back off and back up. Hystery summed it all up, though. 

 

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I cant imagine that in a situation like this, your first thought is "lets go back and wait what happens". You dont even have more than 1-2 seconds to decide what you are going to do. maybe the first thought in this situation was "i will die if i dont react now" or something. i honestly dont want to be in a situation like that ever. yes, there will always be a better way to react, but can you blame him for the way he did? i think most people would have reacted similar if it was their live getting in danger

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8 minutes ago, master1114 said:

I cant imagine that in a situation like this, your first thought is "lets go back and wait what happens". You dont even have more than 1-2 seconds to decide what you are going to do. maybe the first thought in this situation was "i will die if i dont react now" or something. i honestly dont want to be in a situation like that ever. yes, there will always be a better way to react, but can you blame him for the way he did? i think most people would have reacted similar if it was their live getting in danger

Yeah well that's why most people are not suited to be police officers. 

It's perfectly understandable if there's a person with a gun who tries to point it at your direction, and you gun him down. Here there is a different situation. After the door was closed there was no direct threat for officers (as I believe the gun owner did not try shooting through the door). So now you have a person with a firearm behind the door in an apartment possibly with civilians hostage. Here others' safety must come first. 

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On 4/3/2016 at 1:34 PM, Hastings said:

After the door was closed there was no direct threat for officers

Just wanted to respond to this part: Bullets can go through stuff.

I believe I would have retreated and called for SWAT or at least additional officers with better fire arms, but it's hard to second guess someone who has to make a decision in a fraction of a second while under gunfire.
 

On 4/3/2016 at 6:05 AM, master1114 said:

In the US, this would be no question I guess. Even if someone died during that "shooting", nobody would have really cares because it was self-defense and thats it. Shit happens. Gone sutpid.


That's not true at all. The media is on a witch hunt for police officers who use any kind of force. They have been for years now, and it gets fueled by anybody with a cell phone that has a camera on it nearby who take footage in the middle of an altercation with no context to go with it. Unless body cam footage of something like this was released, the general US population would likely assume they are guilty of brutality or excessive force until proven innocent, and even then, the D.A. clearing them of wrongdoing doesn't really make everyone happy. They just continue to hold a grudge and move onto the next police "slaying". I'll also mention that in the U.S., officers would be put on "administrative leave", which is usually two weeks with pay, while the D.A. investigates the shooting to determine if lethal force was justified or not.

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6 hours ago, unr3al said:

Just wanted to respond to this part: Bullets can go through stuff.

I believe I would have retreated and called for SWAT or at least additional officers with better fire arms, but it's hard to second guess someone who has to make a decision in a fraction of a second while under gunfire.

Yes, and if a shot was fired through the door by the suspect I'd say there is the reason to fire back, but not the other way. Of course officers can't be blamed for protecting their lives, but the specifics of the job demand to put others' safety first. I'm not too much of a shootout veteran myself, but as a citizen, I think, I have a right for an opinion.

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2 hours ago, Hastings said:

Yes, and if a shot was fired through the door by the suspect I'd say there is the reason to fire back, but not the other way. Of course officers can't be blamed for protecting their lives, but the specifics of the job demand to put others' safety first. I'm not too much of a shootout veteran myself, but as a citizen, I think, I have a right for an opinion.

the officer was already shot at, though. how much longer is the police supposed to really wait and play it safe if someone stands within arms reach and shoots? it's not going to get better from there on out and that's just not how it works, the threat hasn't immediately seized just because gunfire has momentarily paused (for whatever reasons) and giving someone who's that reckless a chance to further barricade themselves or take more shots, idk, it's like contributing to an escalation. in any case i do think that people are too quick to pass harsh judgement on these type of split second decisions.

 

not to say i don't respect other opinions, but this is a discussion after all. 

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