I'm sure most of us have seen this news already:



http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/11/24/reports-turkey-shoots-russian-jet/76299190/

Turkey is alleging that a Russian attack aircraft moved into their airspace and was shot down by a Turkish F-16 fighter jet. The two pilots bailed out and parachuted towards the ground. It's been reported and supposedly also visible in a video that they were both shot at while parachuting, one of them was killed mid-flight by the men firing at him, still strapped into his parachute. Some Turkish officials claim that both pilots are alive but will not give further details, Turkish rebel groups suggest they were both killed. Russian President Vladimir Putin called the shooting of the jet "a stab in the back". The U.S. seems to be keeping its distance, but in an official statement said: "Turkey has a right to defend their air space". When questioned by a reporter during a live press conference at The White House in Washington D.C. with the question "Isn't America's policy to scramble jet fighters to escort foreign airplanes away from our country's airspace before firing on it? Why didn't Turkey?" the White House spokesperson simply stated that he can't comment because not all of the facts are known yet.

Turkey is a NATO country that is supposedly allied with us, but if Russia decides to pick a serious fight, I have my doubts that we'll back them. Some people are panicking, thinking that this will mean World War III. I doubt that, but it's certainly a problem that needs to be solved. Russia flies in that area due to its bombing runs on a country with a terrorist group in it that Turkey is supposed to be fighting too. That being said, supposedly Russia has been f*cking around with Turkish F-16's by locking their radar onto them for minutes at a time.

Edited November 25, 201510 yr by unr3al

Looks like Turkey showed who they're really backing with this. It's an interesting development indeed, and it'll be interesting to see what happens after this. 

6 hours ago, unr3al said:

Turkey is a NATO country that is supposedly allied with us, but if Russia decides to pick a serious fight, I have my doubts that we'll back them. Some people are panicking, thinking that this will mean World War III. I doubt that, but it's certainly a problem that needs to be solved. Russia flies in that area due to its bombing runs on a country with a terrorist group in it that Turkey is supposed to be fighting too. That being said, supposedly Russia has been f*cking around with Turkish F-16's by locking their radar onto them for minutes at a time.

If Russia declares war against Turkey or attacks Turkey somehow we will have no choice but to defend them, it falls under Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty.

Personally I doubt Russia will responded with any kind of attack because they know if they attack Turkey that all NATO countries will have no choice but to help defend Turkey. This definitely isn't the first time Russia has violated a NATO country's airspace, it happens all the time in the Baltic Sea. Google articles about Russian aircraft being intercepted by NATO aircraft in the Baltics, there are plenty of articles out there from the past 2 years and those are just the ones the media reported on. The only difference in this case is that someone actually stood up to Russia and shot down their aircraft when it violated their airspace. Russia has been violating airspace for years now (and I'm not even talking about during the Cold War) so this was bound to happen eventually.

6 hours ago, l3ubba said:

Personally I doubt Russia will responded with any kind of attack because they know if they attack Turkey that all NATO countries will have no choice but to help defend Turkey. This definitely isn't the first time Russia has violated a NATO country's airspace, it happens all the time in the Baltic Sea. Google articles about Russian aircraft being intercepted by NATO aircraft in the Baltics, there are plenty of articles out there from the past 2 years and those are just the ones the media reported on. The only difference in this case is that someone actually stood up to Russia and shot down their aircraft when it violated their airspace. Russia has been violating airspace for years now (and I'm not even talking about during the Cold War) so this was bound to happen eventually.

Yeah, there won't be any attacks on Turkey or even war

http://tass.ru/en/politics/839164 

In my opinion, our pilots violate airspace because : 1) they don't know at all what the navigation is - sarcasm; 2) they want to show their bravery, strength and power to NATO; 3) our Ministry of Defence forces them to do that (creates such training plans and paths); 4) they make mistakes, all people do that every day :(

Also, what about Turkey? Aha, they violated Greek airspace 2244 times last year only! (yes, I know they are both members of NATO but...this number is too large). I'm not justifying our airspace violations, I just want to make you aware of this fact.

https://www.rt.com/news/323429-greece-turkey-airspace-violations/

14 hours ago, AlexVonShep said:

Yeah, there won't be any attacks on Turkey or even war

http://tass.ru/en/politics/839164 

In my opinion, our pilots violate airspace because : 1) they don't know at all what the navigation is - sarcasm; 2) they want to show their bravery, strength and power to NATO; 3) our Ministry of Defence forces them to do that (creates such training plans and paths); 4) they make mistakes, all people do that every day :(

Also, what about Turkey? Aha, they violated Greek airspace 2244 times last year only! (yes, I know they are both members of NATO but...this number is too large). I'm not justifying our airspace violations, I just want to make you aware of this fact.

https://www.rt.com/news/323429-greece-turkey-airspace-violations/

Of course, I know Russia is not the only country that violates airspace but they have been doing it increasingly more ever since the conflict in Ukraine started. While a few cases might be due to human error I think the majority of the time the pilots are directed to do that because the Russian military wants to test the NATO response. Russia wants to see how that country will react and how fast they react. I highly doubt that any of these cases are due to some kind of problem with the aircraft's navigational equipment because a lot of these aircraft (particularly the one that was shot down in Turkey) are Russia's latest fourth generation fighters and have the most advanced navigational technology available to them so it makes me hard to believe when Russia tries to pin it on errors in the navigational system.

On 11/25/2015, 1:15:54, l3ubba said:

If Russia declares war against Turkey or attacks Turkey somehow we will have no choice but to defend them, it falls under Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty.

Personally I doubt Russia will responded with any kind of attack because they know if they attack Turkey that all NATO countries will have no choice but to help defend Turkey. This definitely isn't the first time Russia has violated a NATO country's airspace, it happens all the time in the Baltic Sea. Google articles about Russian aircraft being intercepted by NATO aircraft in the Baltics, there are plenty of articles out there from the past 2 years and those are just the ones the media reported on. The only difference in this case is that someone actually stood up to Russia and shot down their aircraft when it violated their airspace. Russia has been violating airspace for years now (and I'm not even talking about during the Cold War) so this was bound to happen eventually.

NATO is a defensive alliance so if Turkey keeps up this trend and Russia ends up shooting down one of their planes in defense, the NATO allies will not have any obligation to step in. Hopefully it will never come to that but shooting down the plane for entering your airspace for less than 20 seconds is ridiculous. Two pilots where shot and killed while parachuting because of Turkey's ego. Do you think that's fair and justified?

Plenty of countries have trespassed into neighboring airspace with no ill intend, the USAF did it so do other NATO countries in Europe. Even if they are allies they are not allowed to enter allied airspace without authorization. It's not like Turkey had no idea why are Russian planes near it's border and what are they doing there. The problem is that they are not bombing the right side of the war.

19 minutes ago, BogdanM said:

Two pilots where shot and killed while parachuting because of Turkey's ego.

One survived, but at last there are two deaths connected with the jet crash.

"The navigator, Capt Murakhtin, had been rescued and taken to Russia's Humaymim airbase in Latakia by Syrian government forces. 

A Russian marine, Aleksandr Pozynich, was also killed during an attempted rescue mission, when an Mi-8 helicopter he was travelling in came under fire." 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34912581

And what do you mean by saying "they aren't bombing the right side of the war"?

Given that I'm pretty sure shooting at someone who's bailed out of their aircraft is a war crime... this is getting deep.

55 minutes ago, AlexVonShep said:

One survived, but at last there are two deaths connected with the jet crash.

"The navigator, Capt Murakhtin, had been rescued and taken to Russia's Humaymim airbase in Latakia by Syrian government forces. 

A Russian marine, Aleksandr Pozynich, was also killed during an attempted rescue mission, when an Mi-8 helicopter he was travelling in came under fire." 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34912581

And what do you mean by saying "they aren't bombing the right side of the war"?

Thanks for the correction, I've not been up to date with the latest news. Russia's support to the current Syrian regime is the base of the current Russian-Turkish volatile relations, Turkey wants to see Assad gone and Russia is not speeding up the process.

6 hours ago, BogdanM said:

Thanks for the correction, I've not been up to date with the latest news. Russia's support to the current Syrian regime is the base of the current Russian-Turkish volatile relations, Turkey wants to see Assad gone and Russia is not speeding up the process.

The ongoing political argument is all about who's worse to have in power: Assad or ISIS? Even America seems to be leaning towards not taking another dictator out of power because it keeps making things even worse. More or less giving freedom to people who don't want it badly enough to fight for keeping it.

Older video, but somewhat relevant:

https://youtu.be/ECfKaUXPmYc?t=1m33s

The whole video is good, but 1:33 ties in directly to what I just wrote.

Edited November 26, 201510 yr by unr3al

12 hours ago, unr3al said:

The ongoing political argument is all about who's worse to have in power: Assad or ISIS? Even America seems to be leaning towards not taking another dictator out of power because it keeps making things even worse. More or less giving freedom to people who don't want it badly enough to fight for keeping it.

I agree with this statement 100%. ISIS should have been stopped in it's tracks long before it got any momentum, but the Syrian Rebels preferred to do nothing when ISIS was focused on Iraq and now there's no militia capable of stopping them. Without foreign aid, the FSA would not last long fighting on two fronts and the SAA is in such bad shape that it would crumble against the ferocity of the Daesh. I don't see any sort of resolution to this conflict until ISIS is dealt with and that's only going to happen if NATO or a few of the major powers in the region engage them in full scale war. It seems like the most savage group ends up getting the power and not the one that fights for the right reasons. People are always more driven by hate than by justice.

On 11/26/2015, 4:22:16, BogdanM said:

NATO is a defensive alliance so if Turkey keeps up this trend and Russia ends up shooting down one of their planes in defense, the NATO allies will not have any obligation to step in. Hopefully it will never come to that but shooting down the plane for entering your airspace for less than 20 seconds is ridiculous. Two pilots where shot and killed while parachuting because of Turkey's ego. Do you think that's fair and justified?

Plenty of countries have trespassed into neighboring airspace with no ill intend, the USAF did it so do other NATO countries in Europe. Even if they are allies they are not allowed to enter allied airspace without authorization. It's not like Turkey had no idea why are Russian planes near it's border and what are they doing there. The problem is that they are not bombing the right side of the war.

Why would Russia shoot down a Turkish plane? Turkey is not violating Russian airspace. I understand it is a defensive alliance, that is why I said that if Russia were to attack Turkey NATO would have to step in.

They were not shot down because of Turkey's ego, Russia has had a history of violating Turkish airspace and have even had their aircraft lock onto Turkish aircraft inside Turkish airspace for several minutes. Russia knows exactly what they are doing so why should we feel sorry for them? I am sorry that a Russian pilot had to lose his life probably doing something he was told to do but Russia is just testing how much they can get away with. Like I said this isn't the first offense, how many times should the Turks let Russia knowingly violate their airspace. The Turkish air traffic controllers sent out several messages as the Russia aircraft were getting close, they had plenty of time to turn away.

I already acknowledged that Russia is not the only country to violate airspace. The US has done it, Turkey has done it, pretty much every country with an air force has done it at least once.

Short answer to your question: Yes, I think it is fair and justified that Turkey shot down that aircraft after giving it ample time and warnings to turn away, especially considering the numerous violations that Russia has knowingly committed in the past 2 years.

14 hours ago, l3ubba said:

Why would Russia shoot down a Turkish plane? Turkey is not violating Russian airspace. I understand it is a defensive alliance, that is why I said that if Russia were to attack Turkey NATO would have to step in.

They were not shot down because of Turkey's ego, Russia has had a history of violating Turkish airspace and have even had their aircraft lock onto Turkish aircraft inside Turkish airspace for several minutes. Russia knows exactly what they are doing so why should we feel sorry for them? I am sorry that a Russian pilot had to lose his life probably doing something he was told to do but Russia is just testing how much they can get away with. Like I said this isn't the first offense, how many times should the Turks let Russia knowingly violate their airspace. The Turkish air traffic controllers sent out several messages as the Russia aircraft were getting close, they had plenty of time to turn away.

I already acknowledged that Russia is not the only country to violate airspace. The US has done it, Turkey has done it, pretty much every country with an air force has done it at least once.

Short answer to your question: Yes, I think it is fair and justified that Turkey shot down that aircraft after giving it ample time and warnings to turn away, especially considering the numerous violations that Russia has knowingly committed in the past 2 years.

You think now RuAF will stay clear of turkish borders? No, they are now flying their bombers with escorts. If this scenario repeats itself, the Russian escorts will have to engage the Turkish fighters (even though it will result in mass casualties for Russia for being outnumbered), so yeah Russia could shoot down a Turkish fighter in self defense. Image the shitstorm that would cause.

Russia has a history with almost every NATO country of violating their airspace, locking on their fighters and all that stuff. How many planes were shot down since the cold war? I guess the eurowussies are just too cool headed. If your read my comment carefully, I didn't ask whether the shooting was justified, but whether putting the Russian pilots in a life threatening situation was deemed necessary by the Turkish forces. Turkey shot down the bomber because the wanted to, not because they had to.

There is no definitive proof to what Putin said about Turkey, but it's not a stretch to think that Turkey is holding back against ISIS for various reasons, judging by the fact that Turkey's involvement against ISIS is almost non-existent. So I think this shooting was premeditated and aimed to cause an international incident and gain support from the international community, which lately has been accusing Turkey of secretly aiding ISIS. Read this article if you have time. link

11 hours ago, BogdanM said:

You think now RuAF will stay clear of turkish borders? No, they are now flying their bombers with escorts. If this scenario repeats itself, the Russian escorts will have to engage the Turkish fighters (even though it will result in mass casualties for Russia for being outnumbered), so yeah Russia could shoot down a Turkish fighter in self defense. Image the shitstorm that would cause.

Russia has a history with almost every NATO country of violating their airspace, locking on their fighters and all that stuff. How many planes were shot down since the cold war? I guess the eurowussies are just too cool headed. If your read my comment carefully, I didn't ask whether the shooting was justified, but whether putting the Russian pilots in a life threatening situation was deemed necessary by the Turkish forces. Turkey shot down the bomber because the wanted to, not because they had to.

There is no definitive proof to what Putin said about Turkey, but it's not a stretch to think that Turkey is holding back against ISIS for various reasons, judging by the fact that Turkey's involvement against ISIS is almost non-existent. So I think this shooting was premeditated and aimed to cause an international incident and gain support from the international community, which lately has been accusing Turkey of secretly aiding ISIS. Read this article if you have time. link

I have no idea what the Russian Air Force plans on doing now but at least they know now that Turkey will respond to continued acts of aggression.

I don't know why you keep bringing up the "other NATO countries do it too" excuse, I have already acknowledged that Russia is not the only country violating airspace but they are the ones who do it the most. The life of the pilot is irrelevant. As someone who is in the military I can attest that when it comes to military operations the life of an individual soldier (or in this case, pilot) has little meaning in the grand scheme of things, when you join the military you accept that fact. He is a combatant in a conflict, there are certain risks that are taken by deciding to join the military. And don't try to say he didn't voluntarily join; I know Russia has mandatory service but I highly doubt they would force someone to be a pilot. I'm willing to bet pilots in the Russian Air Force all volunteered to be there.

You are probably right, there was no immediate threat and Turkey probably could have not shot down the aircraft and nobody would have died; however, why should any country have to put up with a foreign military repeatedly and intentionally violating their airspace? I would say this regardless what countries were involved. Russia is continuously pushing the envelope to try and see how much they can get away with and if someone doesn't check them I think they are going to keep pushing further and further.

I have no doubt in my mind that Turkey is holding out on ISIS. Turkey has a very powerful military and it is no secret they aren't doing as much as they could. The reason for this is because Turkey does not like the Kurdish people and since ISIS is at war with the Kurds Turkey is seeing this as a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation. Turkey doesn't like ISIS but the don't like the Kurds even more.

5 hours ago, l3ubba said:

I have no doubt in my mind that Turkey is holding out on ISIS. Turkey has a very powerful military and it is no secret they aren't doing as much as they could. The reason for this is because Turkey does not like the Kurdish people and since ISIS is at war with the Kurds Turkey is seeing this as a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation. Turkey doesn't like ISIS but the don't like the Kurds even more.

Turkey is one of many Muslim countries that does unfortunately share some ideals with ISIS. A large portion of them don't, keep in mind, but consider this brief talking point about Turkey:

https://youtu.be/nsUfHqMSeaA?t=2m22s

75 million people, about 8% of them share ISIS ideals according to interviews, polls and surveys. That sounds small, but that's 6 million people. I'm sorry, but that's a large number. The theory of Turkey holding back its involvement in the war against terror is very plausible.

Edited December 2, 201510 yr by unr3al

10 hours ago, l3ubba said:

I have no idea what the Russian Air Force plans on doing now but at least they know now that Turkey will respond to continued acts of aggression.

I don't know why you keep bringing up the "other NATO countries do it too" excuse, I have already acknowledged that Russia is not the only country violating airspace but they are the ones who do it the most. The life of the pilot is irrelevant. As someone who is in the military I can attest that when it comes to military operations the life of an individual soldier (or in this case, pilot) has little meaning in the grand scheme of things, when you join the military you accept that fact. He is a combatant in a conflict, there are certain risks that are taken by deciding to join the military. And don't try to say he didn't voluntarily join; I know Russia has mandatory service but I highly doubt they would force someone to be a pilot. I'm willing to bet pilots in the Russian Air Force all volunteered to be there.

You are probably right, there was no immediate threat and Turkey probably could have not shot down the aircraft and nobody would have died; however, why should any country have to put up with a foreign military repeatedly and intentionally violating their airspace? I would say this regardless what countries were involved. Russia is continuously pushing the envelope to try and see how much they can get away with and if someone doesn't check them I think they are going to keep pushing further and further.

I have no doubt in my mind that Turkey is holding out on ISIS. Turkey has a very powerful military and it is no secret they aren't doing as much as they could. The reason for this is because Turkey does not like the Kurdish people and since ISIS is at war with the Kurds Turkey is seeing this as a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation. Turkey doesn't like ISIS but the don't like the Kurds even more.

I actually meant the opposite, that other NATO countries didn't do the same thing under similar circumstances, that Turkey's response was disproportionate to the level of threat. I don't believe Turkey only wanted to put a stop to Russian airspace violations, that's only a pretext. I think Turkey caused this incident to disrupt the cooperation between Russia and NATO in the area while portraying themselves as victims of Russian aggression. That's the only play that makes sense to me which actually could have made up for all the repercussions that followed and helped Turkey's interests if it have played out their way.

Erdogan is practically a dictator in a democratic country, he will do whatever it takes to stay in power, including siding with the enemy to keep the Kurds in check. His actions keep sabotaging the collective effort to stop ISIS, he is clearly not on board with Western agenda. If his "friend" is the biggest enemy of the Western world, that's more reason for me to believe that the motives behind this incident are far more sinister.

To me every life is important, that's why I chose a career in the medical field. And no offense but veteran pilots are not expendable, they are one of the country's most valuable assets and their death being facilitated by a friendly/neutral country is not irrelevant. There is no war between Russia and Turkey so lethal action is almost never warranted in these scenarios. 

As a conclusion, was Turkey withing its rights to shoot the plane down, yes. Do I think Turkey had ulterior motives for shooting down the plane and it had nothing do to with standing up to the Russian bear, absolutely!

I find it strange that Russia is one of the few countries fighting ISIS that has military might, is coming under a lot of unnecessary fire from supposed "Nato" countries. I'm not particularly a Putin fan as a whole, but his actions in the Middle East has helped far more than any of these supposed "Nato" ass-clowns have and for that I've grown to like him quite a lot. He's all action an no bullshit politically correct like a lot of countries have come to adhere to. I just find it really weird that so many are trying to hinder him turning the Middle East into glass, or at the very least cleaning up what others have started. 

38 minutes ago, Solidefiance said:

I find it strange that Russia is one of the few countries fighting ISIS that has military might, is coming under a lot of unnecessary fire from supposed "Nato" countries. I'm not particularly a Putin fan as a whole, but his actions in the Middle East has helped far more than any of these supposed "Nato" ass-clowns have and for that I've grown to like him quite a lot. He's all action an no bullshit politically correct like a lot of countries have come to adhere to. I just find it really weird that so many are trying to hinder him turning the Middle East into glass, or at the very least cleaning up what others have started. 

He's not really doing either of those two last things you mentioned. He's doing what the U.S.A. has been doing for years; attempting to keep the "right people" in power to keep the most "productive" relationship possible.

1 hour ago, unr3al said:

He's not really doing either of those two last things you mentioned. He's doing what the U.S.A. has been doing for years; attempting to keep the "right people" in power to keep the most "productive" relationship possible.

Too bad Russian and American interests never seem to align. I know what you mean by the "right people" but it's really a shame there are no actual right people that can handle the mess that's in the middle east. I mean my dictator is better than your dictator certainly doesn't help the people living there. The best anyone can do is either, set up a totalitarian state where the government controls every aspect of a citizens life and so keeping any potential threats in check, but then again that's a really bad way to live. Or the Muslim communities who don't support these extremist groups expel them from every social aspect of their lives, banish them from mosques, stop their funding by any means and expose them to the authorities. The second option would be for countries who won their freedom but now they suffer from attacks from terrorist groups. Sounds pretty easy to do yet that doesn't happen not even in the Muslim communities who integrated very well in Western culture. I think it will take dozens or hundreds of years before Middle East will reach the level of peace and cooperation Europe has now.

Edited December 3, 201510 yr by BogdanM

On 12/2/2015, 10:50:02, BogdanM said:

I actually meant the opposite, that other NATO countries didn't do the same thing under similar circumstances, that Turkey's response was disproportionate to the level of threat. I don't believe Turkey only wanted to put a stop to Russian airspace violations, that's only a pretext. I think Turkey caused this incident to disrupt the cooperation between Russia and NATO in the area while portraying themselves as victims of Russian aggression. That's the only play that makes sense to me which actually could have made up for all the repercussions that followed and helped Turkey's interests if it have played out their way.

Erdogan is practically a dictator in a democratic country, he will do whatever it takes to stay in power, including siding with the enemy to keep the Kurds in check. His actions keep sabotaging the collective effort to stop ISIS, he is clearly not on board with Western agenda. If his "friend" is the biggest enemy of the Western world, that's more reason for me to believe that the motives behind this incident are far more sinister.

To me every life is important, that's why I chose a career in the medical field. And no offense but veteran pilots are not expendable, they are one of the country's most valuable assets and their death being facilitated by a friendly/neutral country is not irrelevant. There is no war between Russia and Turkey so lethal action is almost never warranted in these scenarios. 

As a conclusion, was Turkey withing its rights to shoot the plane down, yes. Do I think Turkey had ulterior motives for shooting down the plane and it had nothing do to with standing up to the Russian bear, absolutely!

Your theory is definitely plausible and I wouldn't put it past Turkey to attempt something like that however the Russians are not completely guilt free either. Russia has been increasingly testing NATO countries ever since the conflict in Ukraine and I think they are walking a very fine line. And yes, I don't like seeing people dying especially for stupid reasons but my point is in the military there is an accepted risk you take when joining.