I just argued with Hystery with no issues.

It's an understatement considering our record of having different opinions on various debates 

Isn't Walmart a private company? Can't you just use a different company? Really confused.

I was fine with calling it a discussion until you went on the personal offence and trying to shut me up 'just because i'm dutch'. That is sad, but shows alot about you. Now carry on with your discussion, foreigners stay out.

Umm, no. I just don't appreciate it when people that don't live in America make such harsh and uneducated criticisms against it. You actually believed that someone who waved an ISIS flag would be lynched and mobbed. This shows that you know nothing about American civilization. 

It's an understatement considering our record of having different opinions on various debates 

True, but I can only recall one time where we straight up attacked each other and it wasn't even about the topic. Every other time, it's been a hardcore disagreeance in opinion or views. That's one thing that I continue to respect about you. Even if someone has an opinion 100% against your opinion, you don't usually don't become hostile and aggressive and nasty. So long as people do this, they have my respect of their opinion. The slightest bit of Ad Hominem causes me to lose respect for it. 

Isn't Walmart a private company? Can't you just use a different company? Really confused.

Well, the problem that people have here is the fact that Walmart proposes itself as this "save money, live better, great deals for you" grocery store. Walmart is notably cheaper than other stores, so I assume that some people have an issue with them refusing to produce the flag. I personally shop at Target, so this doesn't really effect me. Lol. 

Edited June 30, 201510 yr by TheDivineHustle

 Well, the problem that people have here is the fact that Walmart proposes itself as this "save money, live better, great deals for you" grocery store. Walmart is notably cheaper than other stores,  so I assume that some people have an issue with them refusing to produce the flag. I personally shop at Target, so this doesn't really effect me. Lol. 

Yea I don't think complaining that a company doesn't sell something is going to have much of a point to it. If you don't like what they are doing then out of protest sure you could not buy from them. How effective that is put aside that is a choice someone has, if enough people dislike their choice and do that then maybe Walmart would change its mind or maybe they just go out of business. Yes Walmart is choosing to not sell something for political reasons okay that is the private company's choice, they aren't breaking the law choosing not to get that item is stock anymore. There are other products which Walmart and other stores don't have in stock because of reasons like this or just because of the inability to get a contract signed. for example Walmart sells Totino's pizza, but they don't sell Mama Cozzi's Pizza (at lest that I know of) so when you want Mama Cozzi's you don't go to someplace that sells Mama Cozzi's. There could be many reasons they don't sell that pizza but for whatever reason Walmart decided on they don't sell it, that's their right as a private company. So as for the flag (not even gonna talk about what the flag is/supposedly a symbol of) they sell US American flags but not CSA flags, that is what they made the choice on. If you want one find a store that sells it. If you feel that stores price is to high you can tell them that maybe they'll consider changing it, that's all anyone can do. So yea as Divine and Cyan said there is other stores. 

Isn't Walmart a private company? Can't you just use a different company? Really confused.

Well, considering that major companies have already banned this flag, soon it might get hard to use a different company. This thread is not about it tho, I'm more interested in why this is happening. They refuse to bake one flag, but readily agree to make another? I think the corporations made those decisions considering people's opinion. And the purpose of this thread is to try and understand people's opinion in the US on this topic. 

Well, considering that major companies have already banned this flag, soon it might get hard to use a different company. This thread is not about it tho, I'm more interested in why this is happening. They refuse to bake one flag, but readily agree to make another? I think the corporations made those decisions considering people's opinion. And the purpose of this thread is to try and understand people's opinion in the US on this topic. 

This is a can of worms, not saying this topic shouldn't exist but I don't see this getting to any end result because as you said its opinions in the US and that is going to very a lot from person to person. I have my own opinions like everyone else and not going to lie every time I see this subject my head starts spinning from all of the insanity. Lots of people thinking their opinion is right and others are wrong; lots thinking they know what is real fact when its not fact (on both sides) and lots of fighting... lots of fighting. I wish there to be a civilized chat about this but someone always is going to take something as hostile to them or their ideas on the internet.

This is a can of worms, not saying this topic shouldn't exist but I don't see this getting to any end result because as you said its opinions in the US and that is going to very a lot from person to person. I have my own opinions like everyone else and not going to lie every time I see this subject my head starts spinning from all of the insanity. Lots of people thinking their opinion is right and others are wrong; lots thinking they know what is real fact when its not fact (on both sides) and lots of fighting... lots of fighting. I wish there to be a civilized chat about this but someone always is going to take something as hostile to them or their ideas on the internet.

Well, I'm not looking for any "right" opinion, just trying to get a general feeling about how you live there. I know no better ways then asking people who actually live there, at least it's better then trusting the news. As of where this topic is going, well, I guess the moderators will be quick to deal with it in an event of any rules violation 

 

well, Wiki says it was CSA's national flag. 

 And, actually, thanks to the freedom of speech you can call me a southern racist piece of crap from the butthole of the world, and that's your right. My right is to wave any kind of flag unless it is prohibited by the law.  I have no clue how US laws govern that issue, but here if an organization is declared a terrorist organization, you cannot display its symbols, it's a criminal offense. 

Of course, "me" is an example, I don't even own this flag. 

Wiki is wrong or you're misreading it. The first Confederate national flag had nothing to do with the commonly flown flag (which was the battle flag). The second national flag was a white flag with the battle flag in the canton. The third national flag was a white flag with a red right border and the battle flag in the canton (because the second flag, when it folded wrong, looked like a flag of surrender).

US laws do not criminalize use of the symbols of a terrorist organization. And US laws do not prohibit waving the Confederate flag. The right to display symbols of your choice does not necessarily translate into the right to force a private company to produce goods with those symbols for you to buy. Wal-Mart is not the government, and is not obligated to sell a cake with the Confederate flag if they don't want to.

This is exactly the issue with the people who have refused to bake wedding cakes for same-sex marriages. However, in that case, they sometimes run afoul of laws banning discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation; no such laws exist banning discrimination on the grounds of what symbols you like to use. It's questionable if laws like that would be constitutional, but they don't exist so it doesn't matter.

Doesn't matter what people think of the Confederate flag, you should have the right to wave whatever flag you want. That's what gives America its name. "The land of the free". How can we be called that when we are denying people a basic right to wave a damned flag? It doesn't make sense, and it's hypocritical. I support the existence of the Confederate flag, no matter what it represents. If you're an American and you think that the flag should be banned and made illegal, then you are a hypocrite.

You do have the right to fly whatever flag you want. Nobody is banning anyone from flying the Confederate flag, they just don't want it to be flown on government grounds. I don't know where you are getting your information but it is very wrong. Please give me one source that the US is "denying people a basic right to wave a flag".

I agree with you. One may demand the CSA flag to be removed from the government owned facilities, but all those bans by private corporations and media outrage...

However, I didn't want to create another thread about "CSA: good or not". We already have one. I'm interested in how Americans really think about CSA and ISIS. 

Companies aren't "banning" the Confederate flag, they are choosing to not sell that kind of merchandise anymore. They are doing this on their own free will, nobody has demanded that they do this. These companies have made those decisions themselves, that is called free market and while you and several other people on this forum are outraged that these companies for doing this you will say in the same breath that everyone should have the freedom to do what they want. So using your logic if someone wants to fly a flag they should have the freedom to do so but when a company decides (on their own free will) to stop selling a particular product it is an outrage? Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement?

I'd also like to mention that I'm black. Since the flag represents such racism and hate, why am I not offended? Maybe because it doesn't represent racism and hate? Maybe that's just what racist bigots use the flag to represent?

You keep bringing up your race, what does this have to do with anything? Do you speak for all black people? Does the fact that you are black mean that your opinion holds more weight? There are plenty of black people who do have a problem with the flag and there are plenty others who don't. Maybe it doesn't represent racism and hate to you but to others it might and if people read a history book once and awhile they would understand why that is a perfectly legitimate opinion.

Well, considering that major companies have already banned this flag, soon it might get hard to use a different company. This thread is not about it tho, I'm more interested in why this is happening. They refuse to bake one flag, but readily agree to make another? I think the corporations made those decisions considering people's opinion. And the purpose of this thread is to try and understand people's opinion in the US on this topic. 

Again, nobody banned the flag, they willing decided to stop selling it. I don't understand why you started this thread. There is already another thread that covers this topic, no need to start a whole new thread on the same thing. I find it extremely hypocritical that when certain bakeries refused to bake wedding cakes for gay couples the conservatives said "that is the company's choice and they have the right to deny someone" and not even 6 months later when companies are deciding to pull certain products from their shelves and refuse to bake a Confederate flag cake the exact same people are saying it is an outrage. It seriously baffles me as to how people don't see the hypocrisies in their arguments. Sometimes I wonder if these are really that blind to their own hypocrisies and they actually believe what they are saying is true or if they know what they are saying is hypocritical and not true but say it anyway to push their agenda. And yes you are right, lots of those corporations made those decisions based on people's opinion. That is what corporations do, they want to keep their customers happy so that those people keep coming back to their stores, this isn't a brand new tactic they are using they have been doing it for centuries and every business does it.

Wiki is wrong or you're misreading it. The first Confederate national flag had nothing to do with the commonly flown flag (which was the battle flag). The second national flag was a white flag with the battle flag in the canton. The third national flag was a white flag with a red right border and the battle flag in the canton (because the second flag, when it folded wrong, looked like a flag of surrender).

US laws do not criminalize use of the symbols of a terrorist organization. And US laws do not prohibit waving the Confederate flag. The right to display symbols of your choice does not necessarily translate into the right to force a private company to produce goods with those symbols for you to buy. Wal-Mart is not the government, and is not obligated to sell a cake with the Confederate flag if they don't want to.

This is exactly the issue with the people who have refused to bake wedding cakes for same-sex marriages. However, in that case, they sometimes run afoul of laws banning discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation; no such laws exist banning discrimination on the grounds of what symbols you like to use. It's questionable if laws like that would be constitutional, but they don't exist so it doesn't matter.

Thank God, someone else sees through all the bullshit and knows what is fact and what is fiction. I was beginning to think I was the only one here that didn't believe all the BS rhetoric that has been spewed out here.

 

 So using your logic if someone wants to fly a flag they should have the freedom to do so but when a company decides (on their own free will) to stop selling a particular product it is an outrage? Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement?

 

Again, nobody banned the flag, they willing decided to stop selling it. I don't understand why you started this thread. There is already another thread that covers this topic, no need to start a whole new thread on the same thing. I find it extremely hypocritical that when certain bakeries refused to bake wedding cakes for gay couples the conservatives said "that is the company's choice and they have the right to deny someone" and not even 6 months later when companies are deciding to pull certain products from their shelves and refuse to bake a Confederate flag cake the exact same people are saying it is an outrage. It seriously baffles me as to how people don't see the hypocrisies in their arguments. Sometimes I wonder if these are really that blind to their own hypocrisies and they actually believe what they are saying is true or if they know what they are saying is hypocritical and not true but say it anyway to push their agenda. And yes you are right, lots of those corporations made those decisions based on people's opinion. That is what corporations do, they want to keep their customers happy so that those people keep coming back to their stores, this isn't a brand new tactic they are using they have been doing it for centuries and every business does it.

 

1. No, because you're lying and that is not my logic. 

2. What does gay couples have to do with it? Nothing. 

Guess you didn't even read what I've posted. 

You do have the right to fly whatever flag you want. Nobody is banning anyone from flying the Confederate flag, they just don't want it to be flown on government grounds. I don't know where you are getting your information but it is very wrong. Please give me one source that the US is "denying people a basic right to wave a flag".

Companies aren't "banning" the Confederate flag, they are choosing to not sell that kind of merchandise anymore. They are doing this on their own free will, nobody has demanded that they do this. These companies have made those decisions themselves, that is called free market and while you and several other people on this forum are outraged that these companies for doing this you will say in the same breath that everyone should have the freedom to do what they want. So using your logic if someone wants to fly a flag they should have the freedom to do so but when a company decides (on their own free will) to stop selling a particular product it is an outrage? Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement?

You keep bringing up your race, what does this have to do with anything? Do you speak for all black people? Does the fact that you are black mean that your opinion holds more weight? There are plenty of black people who do have a problem with the flag and there are plenty others who don't. Maybe it doesn't represent racism and hate to you but to others it might and if people read a history book once and awhile they would understand why that is a perfectly legitimate opinion.

Again, nobody banned the flag, they willing decided to stop selling it. I don't understand why you started this thread. There is already another thread that covers this topic, no need to start a whole new thread on the same thing. I find it extremely hypocritical that when certain bakeries refused to bake wedding cakes for gay couples the conservatives said "that is the company's choice and they have the right to deny someone" and not even 6 months later when companies are deciding to pull certain products from their shelves and refuse to bake a Confederate flag cake the exact same people are saying it is an outrage. It seriously baffles me as to how people don't see the hypocrisies in their arguments. Sometimes I wonder if these are really that blind to their own hypocrisies and they actually believe what they are saying is true or if they know what they are saying is hypocritical and not true but say it anyway to push their agenda. And yes you are right, lots of those corporations made those decisions based on people's opinion. That is what corporations do, they want to keep their customers happy so that those people keep coming back to their stores, this isn't a brand new tactic they are using they have been doing it for centuries and every business does it.

Thank God, someone else sees through all the bullshit and knows what is fact and what is fiction. I was beginning to think I was the only one here that didn't believe all the BS rhetoric that has been spewed out here.

My arguments here are directed towards people that believe the Confederate flag should be 100% banned. Gone from America, made illegal, ridden of our society. If you do not agree with that, then my argument is not directed towards you. It was directed at someone that said the right to wave any flag shouldn't exist.

No, but people tend to put more recognition onto my opinion when I mention my race, kind of like you did right now. I don't speak for all blacks, but I am a primary source when it comes to issues involving blacks. I keep bringing up my race because that's what people are making the Confederate flag about. "The flag is racist", racist towards who? People with long arms, people with big noses, or blacks? Blacks is the correct answer and this is why my race is significant in this discussion. I'm black, and this flag is supposed to represent racism and hate towards blacks primarily, as well as other minority groups and religions. I don't see the hate and racism in the flag, and I'm supposedly the primary target of said racism from the flag. That's why I continue to mention my race. If we were discussing gay marriage I wouldn't bring my race up. Why not? Because it's irrelevant. Being black has nothing to do with gay marriage.

As for two other things:

First, I don't find it implausible in the least that someone wouldn't recognize an ISIS flag. Not everyone follows the news overmuch, and ISIS hasn't actually done much in the way of attacks against the US (the ISIS-US thing is US citizens joining ISIS, but not US cities being attacked).

Second, the general sense I have about public opinion on the matter is this: The Confederate flag has always been considered by a good-sized chunk of people to have a strong undercurrent of racism. (this is, incidentally, my view, on the matter) However, the conventional wisdom was "this is something to just deal with, there's no way to change it." People who thought it was problematic didn't necessarily speak out (many didn't care that much, honestly), but there were people speaking out about it. It's just that attacking it was often considered pointless, because it was unlikely to result in any sort of change.

The shooting in Charleston made the Confederate flag a major talking point, because the shooter acted under a white supremacist ideology and prominently displayed the Confederate flag on some pictures. Once it became a talking point, many of the people to speak up were those who were always opposed to it. There's been something of a hidden cultural shift, where the flag was ripe for massive criticism (fewer and fewer people were willing to strongly defend it, where "strongly defending it" means being willing to defend it on principle -- basically, the point of view Pavelow and DivineHustle have been taking on this site). So, once it became seriously controversial, lots of people were speaking out against it and virtually no one was in favor of it. Public opinion has thus turned fast and hard against the flag. While this is going on, governments are publicly disavowing it and private companies are deciding it's either no longer necessary to support it, or not worth trying to support it.

There may well be a backlash, with the flag becoming more popular as a response. But this has looked to me more like a gradual shift in public opinion that (when people started focusing on something that hadn't received much focus in a while) resulted in an apparent massive swing. I'm not a sociologist, but that's the impression I get.

 

@everyone: Cool the personal attacks.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150629/PC16/150629298/kkk-to-rally-for-confederate-flag-july-18-at-statehouse

With that, I believe it'll be clear to everyone that it's hard not to judge that flag for what it means for those people.

1. No, because you're lying and that is not my logic. 

2. What does gay couples have to do with it? Nothing. 

Guess you didn't even read what I've posted. 

Lol that is the funniest response I have gotten yet. First I don't know what your number 1 bullet is referring to ("No" what?) But I find it hilarious that you are saying I am lying. What am I lying about?

I used the gay couple as an example because it is almost the exact same situation as you posted about. There were stories in the news about how certain bakeries were refusing to bake cakes for gay weddings and all the conservatives jumped up and defended their actions saying that the bakery doesn't have to serve them if they don't want to. You just posted a story about a Walmart refusing to bake a Confederate flag cake and now all the conservatives are saying that is wrong and they shouldn't be discriminating against someone just because they want a certain flag on their cake. You don't see the parallel in those stories at all? You don't see any hypocrisies?

And I did read your posts that is why I quoted them and responded to specific things you said.

My arguments here are directed towards people that believe the Confederate flag should be 100% banned. Gone from America, made illegal, ridden of our society. If you do not agree with that, then my argument is not directed towards you. It was directed at someone that said the right to wave any flag shouldn't exist.

No, but people tend to put more recognition onto my opinion when I mention my race, kind of like you did right now. I don't speak for all blacks, but I am a primary source when it comes to issues involving blacks. I keep bringing up my race because that's what people are making the Confederate flag about. "The flag is racist", racist towards who? People with long arms, people with big noses, or blacks? Blacks is the correct answer and this is why my race is significant in this discussion. I'm black, and this flag is supposed to represent racism and hate towards blacks primarily, as well as other minority groups and religions. I don't see the hate and racism in the flag, and I'm supposedly the primary target of said racism from the flag. That's why I continue to mention my race. If we were discussing gay marriage I wouldn't bring my race up. Why not? Because it's irrelevant. Being black has nothing to do with gay marriage.

Ok so who is saying the flag should be 100% banned? This is the first I am hearing of this. I have been following the news and I have been reading these forum threads and nowhere have I seen anyone suggest anything about banning the Confederate flag and making it illegal. I have seen people arguing that it should be banned from being flown at government buildings and at certain memorials, but nobody has said that private citizens should be banned from flying it.

You are a primary source? How so? Because you are black? Does that mean I am a primary source when it comes to topics about white people? I'll go ahead and answer that last question for you; no I am not. I am one white person out of millions and millions of them so anything I say has no meaning when you talk to other white people. So you are black and the flag doesn't offend you and you don't see it as a racist symbol. The fact that you are black has no meaning to me, it does not make your opinion more valid than anyone else's and, to me personally, it doesn't make me pay more attention to your opinion (other than me thinking it is ridiculous that someone would use their race as a way to bring more attention to their opinion). I'm not going to go into the history of the flag and why it stands for racism and hatred because I have already spent a lot of time explaining that in another thread and I am sure that no matter how many historical facts I throw at you it will not change your opinion.

Lol that is the funniest response I have gotten yet. First I don't know what your number 1 bullet is referring to ("No" what?) But I find it hilarious that you are saying I am lying. What am I lying about?

I used the gay couple as an example because it is almost the exact same situation as you posted about. There were stories in the news about how certain bakeries were refusing to bake cakes for gay weddings and all the conservatives jumped up and defended their actions saying that the bakery doesn't have to serve them if they don't want to. You just posted a story about a Walmart refusing to bake a Confederate flag cake and now all the conservatives are saying that is wrong and they shouldn't be discriminating against someone just because they want a certain flag on their cake. You don't see the parallel in those stories at all? You don't see any hypocrisies?

And I did read your posts that is why I quoted them and responded to specific things you said.

It is referring to your question quoted by me, which, as it seems, you didn't read too. You're lying about "my logic", because in this thread I never said companies can't do things they do. I don't like their decisions - true, I wouldn't do the same - true, I believe they should do differently - true.  But they have the right to do what they want, and no one can deny it. (Just as Hystery can call me whatever he wants). I stated several times that the purpose of this thread is to discover opinions of actual Americans, not the info media provides here. If you think this thread should be closed please contact the moderators. 

I don't see how that makes me a hypocrite. I never said anything about limiting people's free will in this thread or any other. I hope I resolved all the misunderstandings. 

 

It is referring to your question quoted by me, which, as it seems, you didn't read too. You're lying about "my logic", because in this thread I never said companies can't do things they do. I don't like their decisions - true, I wouldn't do the same - true, I believe they should do differently - true.  But they have the right to do what they want, and no one can deny it. (Just as Hystery can call me whatever he wants). I stated several times that the purpose of this thread is to discover opinions of actual Americans, not the info media provides here. If you think this thread should be closed please contact the moderators. 

I don't see how that makes me a hypocrite. I never said anything about limiting people's free will in this thread or any other. I hope I resolved all the misunderstandings. 

 

I am just using what you said. I didn't make anything up. In your posts you said it was an outrage that companies would "ban" the Confederate flag from their stores yet you also believe people should have the freedom to wave whatever flag they want. You are the one who brought up the media story and all of the media coverage about this, not me. I am just responding to the stuff you posted.

I am just using what you said. I didn't make anything up. In your posts you said it was an outrage that companies would "ban" the Confederate flag from their stores yet you also believe people should have the freedom to wave whatever flag they want. You are the one who brought up the media story and all of the media coverage about this, not me. I am just responding to the stuff you posted.

All right, if you want this.

 Would you kindly quote me saying "it was an outrage that companies would "ban" the Confederate flag from their stores". 

No, you respond to something else. You speak about someone being hypocritical, and imply that's me. All you said (addressing to me) is simply "I don't need this topic, you're hypocrite, company did nothing wrong". While this may be true, it has very little to do with the original purpose of this topic. (however I clearly see your opinion on these matters). 

 

One may demand the CSA flag to be removed from the government owned facilities, but all those bans by private corporations and media outrage...

All right, if you want this.

 Would you kindly quote me saying "it was an outrage that companies would "ban" the Confederate flag from their stores". 

No, you respond to something else. You speak about someone being hypocritical, and imply that's me. All you said (addressing to me) is simply "I don't need this topic, you're hypocrite, company did nothing wrong". While this may be true, it has very little to do with the original purpose of this topic. (however I clearly see your opinion on these matters). 

 

In the post I quoted above you were ok with people demanding the flag being removed from government facilities but not "all those bans by private corporations".

I never said "I don't need this topic" and yes I already explained why I thought what you said was hypocritical when you were talking about the whole cake situation. And no, I don't think any of those companies did anything wrong. They are all private companies who are free to sell or not sell whatever products they choose. Like I said, I am simply responding to what you posted. You made a bunch of posts about companies not selling Confederate flags and not willing to bake Confederate flag cakes so I responded to those posts. If that is not the "purpose of this topic" then don't post about it, you can't fault me for something you brought up.

I hope it's not hypocritical for me to say, I don't think it is ok for companies to refuse service or to not make a wedding cake for a gay or bisexual couple and I also think Walmart and whoever should be able to make whatever cake a person requests. 

In the post I quoted above you were ok with people demanding the flag being removed from government facilities but not "all those bans by private corporations".

I never said "I don't need this topic" and yes I already explained why I thought what you said was hypocritical when you were talking about the whole cake situation. And no, I don't think any of those companies did anything wrong. They are all private companies who are free to sell or not sell whatever products they choose. Like I said, I am simply responding to what you posted. You made a bunch of posts about companies not selling Confederate flags and not willing to bake Confederate flag cakes so I responded to those posts. If that is not the "purpose of this topic" then don't post about it, you can't fault me for something you brought up.

My post says about "media outrage", which in my opinion takes place. I am not calling those "bans" an outrage, as you said I do. However I do disagree with them, but this all was discussed before. Thank you for clarifying your position. 

I hope it's not hypocritical for me to say, I don't think it is ok for companies to refuse service or to not make a wedding cake for a gay or bisexual couple and I also think Walmart and whoever should be able to make whatever cake a person requests. 

It doesn't sound hypocritical to me. On the contrary, it is one of those opinions I was interested in. 

Edited June 30, 201510 yr by Hastings