Since when do police have Apaches and tanks..they dont. Lol. And things have happened, there has been a scenario where (I think it was bank robbers?) stole an HMMWV. Its probably not rocket science to steal a bearcat. As for the guard, they are mostly involved in Iraq, and help in things like hurricane katrina. They are commanded by state and federal orders to help in disasters and similar things. They dont have much involvement in LE related things, not to mention Swat could take care of the shootout, considering there is usually up to 8 teams with around 6-8 people on each team. What you said is not the general purpose of the guard. Although how you said the guard was called in, that was a huge riot that could not be controlled by the general police. Although that is not relevant to a shootout, unlike a shootout "LA going beserk/riots" would be a large scale event going on for days.

Alot of people over estimate LEOS and underestimate criminals, they need to stop watching "COPS" and crime movies and realize that in the real world, police cant control everything.

*Sigh*

 

I never said that the Police do have those vehicles. I did say that if the Police needed those vehicles, that they would most likely be given the vehicles, or the National Guard would be called in.

 

I doubt that a gang could so easily steal an armored support vehicle. This is American law enforcement were talking about. You'd be shot down before you even got close to that Bearcat. If I was an officer, I'd rather kill you and face severe consequences, than let you get into that Bearcat.

 

The purpose of the National Guard, is the respond to a situation when local law enforcement can't keep the peace. I suggest you do a bit of research on the Guard before you make statements such as, "What you said is not the general purpose of the guard." I know what the National Guard does, because my father is in the National Guard, and it's common sense. Where do you think The National Guard operates? They aren't called The World Guard. "When strong storms or tornadoes devastate a community, the Guard responds with strength and efficiency." That is taken directly from the United States National Guard website. (http://www.nationalguard.com/) The United States Military, specifically the Marine Corps, deal with international crisis. A quick example, would be Haiti. The United States Armed Forces such as the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps deal with situations such as Iraq and Afghanistan. Funny how a lot of Americans don't know that there are still US Troops in Iraq.

 

I'm not doubting that SWAT is able to handle a shootout. That's what they're prepared for, the worst case scenario.

 

"Although how you said the guard was called in, that was a huge riot that could not be controlled by the general police". Exactly my point, which is why the National Guard was called in. Local law enforcement couldn't control the situation, obviously if there were about 49 deaths and several others injured, so the National Guard had to be called in.

 

Common sense tells you that the Police can't control everything. However, the Police can control most situations. Nowadays, It'd be a very rare case that law enforcement is required to actually retreat, because they can't keep the peace.

 

Here is another segment taken directly from the National Guard website.

All members of the infantry are skilled and trained to serve their community and state during the event of a natural disaster. From combat missions to rescue efforts, infantry Soldiers are always ready and always there, embodying everything the Guard stands for.

Edited July 21, 201411 yr by cp702
wipe formatting clean

my dad is a retired cop form Readington, does that include retired LE Officers too?

 

*Sigh*

 

I never said that the Police do have those vehicles. I did say that if the Police needed those vehicles, that they would most likely be given the vehicles, or the National Guard would be called in.

 

I doubt that a gang could so easily steal an armored support vehicle. This is American law enforcement were talking about. You'd be shot down before you even got close to that Bearcat. If I was an officer, I'd rather kill you and face severe consequences, than let you get into that Bearcat.

 

The purpose of the National Guard, is the respond to a situation when local law enforcement can't keep the peace. I suggest you do a bit of research on the Guard before you make statements such as, "What you said is not the general purpose of the guard." I know what the National Guard does, because my father is in the National Guard, and it's common sense. Where do you think The National Guard operates? They aren't called The World Guard. "When strong storms or tornadoes devastate a community, the Guard responds with strength and efficiency.

That is taken directly from the United States National Guard website. (http://www.nationalguard.com/) The United States Military, specifically the Marine Corps, deal with international crisis. A quick example, would be Haiti. The United States Armed Forces such as the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps deal with situations such as Iraq and Afghanistan. Funny how a lot of Americans don't know that there are still US Troops in Iraq.

 

I'm not doubting that SWAT is able to handle a shootout. That's what they're prepared for, the worst case scenario.

 

"Although how you said the guard was called in, that was a huge riot that could not be controlled by the general police". Exactly my point, which is why the National Guard was called in. Local law enforcement couldn't control the situation, obviously if there were about 49 deaths and several others injured, so the National Guard had to be called in.

 

Common sense tells you that the Police can't control everything. However, the Police can control most situations. Nowadays, It'd be a very rare case that law enforcement is required to actually retreat, because they can't keep the peace.

 

Here is another segment taken directly from the National Guard website.

All members of the infantry are skilled and trained to serve their community and state during the event of a natural disaster. From combat missions to rescue efforts, infantry Soldiers are always ready and always there, embodying everything the Guard stands for.

Police would be given those weapons? Since when are LEOS trained to drive armored tanks and missile shooting apaches?

 

Like you said "When strong storms or tornadoes devastate a community, the Guard responds with strength and efficiency.

 

What does that have to do with  helping LEOS? I already said, twice that the guard helps in storms. Do you also realize that 70%, (more or less at this time) of  the guard is in afghanistan?

 

For the second quote, like I said twice in previous posts, now 4 times the guard helps in natural disasters. A shootout is not a combat mission nor is a shootout a rescue mission. i have no clue what your getting at.

"Although how you said the guard was called in, that was a huge riot that could not be controlled by the general police". Exactly my point, which is why the National Guard was called in. Local law enforcement couldn't control the situation, obviously if there were about 49 deaths and several others injured, so the National Guard had to be called in.

 

This is different,  this happened over a large amount of days and was across the whole area, unlike a shootout. A shootout is in a small area, generally - This can be handled by LEOS. This is not a war zone, its a city. The guard does heavy duty combat operations

 

Not even MPs help in shootouts, here is a quote directly from the page of the national guard - kind of what you did.

 

 

Military police (MPs) deal with crimes committed on military property or any illegal activity involving members of the Guard. Trained as Soldiers and police officers, MPs play a crucial role in conducting traffic control, corrections, security and mobility support. To keep Soldiers and their property safe, MPs are instructed in area security operations, which includes forced protection, anti-terror and crime prevention functions.

In the event of a natural disaster, military police act alongside local law enforcement and first responders. MPs rescue those in need or detain civilians who are breaking the law. MPs assist, protect and defend while upholding the rule of law.

 

Mps help protect military property..There is even an example of this in i think gta sa or vice city. They help in earth quakes and disasters, a shootout is not really a disaster.

 

There is a good amount of branches in the guard, judging by there names they clearly do not help LEOS with crime related activity. Why would the army do that?

 

Branches: Infantry, Ground Defense, Engineer, Air Defense, Aviation, Military Police (MPS LIKE I SAID), Intel, Munitions, Transport, Medical, Admin and Relations, Mechanical, Supports and logistics, System Techs, special forces.

 

I highly doubt your dad works for the guard based on what your saying. Sorry for talking in all these fonts because of copying and pasting from your thread, and from nationalguard.com.

 

If a matter where the guard would need to come occurs, from the start it wouldnt even be a priority of law enforcement, if something big enough that the army would need to come in occured, leos and swat wouldnt even be involved, probably not even in blocking traffic. (Which is a job MPs do)

Edited July 21, 201411 yr by cp702
Stripped formatting.

No, gangs don't have better guns than police. For one thing, police have much better access to rifles -- criminals do not, as a rule, use rifles (you can't really conceal them), and police don't have to worry about concealing their guns.

Now I'm an Aussie so I can only speculate on this but, yes Police Officers may have access to weapons such as AR-15's and Shotguns but I'm sure Gangs could get easy access to something like a MAC-10 with a 30-40 round mag and it would be very easy to conceal in a jacket or even under a newspaper.

Edited July 21, 201411 yr by cp702
stripped spacing

Now I'm an Aussie so I can only speculate on this but, yes Police Officers may have access to weapons such as AR-15's and Shotguns but I'm sure Gangs could get easy access to something like a MAC-10 with a 30-40 round mag and it would be very easy to conceal in a jacket or even under a newspaper.

Ar-15's are semi automatic, gangs can get access to weapons just as good, and better than swat. A full auto folding stock mp5 could fuck up anyones day, and still be concealed. A huge gang like the bloods have access to a huge arsenal of weapons, whether they want to use them, thats there decision. Even if they have better guns, it doesnt mean they can use them better.

 

But yeah, cops sure have better guns than gangs (Sarcasm)

 

No, you can't conceal an MP5 on your person. It is a large rigid object, which *will* show. Showing pictures of firearms carried by Mexican cartels, which operate in an environment that is entirely different from any American gang, is not solid arguing. And lastly, national gangs don't want to get in fights with the police. Gang leadership generally hates gang wars - it's expensive, vastly decreases revenue (people don't like to buy things when they can get shot for it), and results in those gang leaders getting sent to prison and/or shot dead. Gang wars are started by the low-level people, not higher-ups.

Furthermore, gangs in the US have no use for heavy-grade weapons. If you haven't noticed, the world isn't GTA. Gangs do not fight outright wars. Gang violence is, as a rule, small-scale. It's different in other countries, where gangs are full-scale paramilitary organizations, which can and do take on law enforcement. But that does not happen in the US, because gangs can't take on law enforcement.

By the way: Training cuts more in favor of police than gangs. Police tend to have poor marksmanship, as a group, but gang members have even worse marksmanship. Gangs don't have the whole "academy" system; there is no mandatory curriculum.

You shittin me right? King was in no way innocent. 

 

The pursuit was over and the officers to continue to beat King, even after he was on the ground and compliant. That was what I meant by innocent, but that wasn't the right word to choose.

No, you can't conceal an MP5 on your person. It is a large rigid object, which *will* show. Showing pictures of firearms carried by Mexican cartels, which operate in an environment that is entirely different from any American gang, is not solid arguing. And lastly, national gangs don't want to get in fights with the police. Gang leadership generally hates gang wars - it's expensive, vastly decreases revenue (people don't like to buy things when they can get shot for it), and results in those gang leaders getting sent to prison and/or shot dead. Gang wars are started by the low-level people, not higher-ups.

Furthermore, gangs in the US have no use for heavy-grade weapons. If you haven't noticed, the world isn't GTA. Gangs do not fight outright wars. Gang violence is, as a rule, small-scale. It's different in other countries, where gangs are full-scale paramilitary organizations, which can and do take on law enforcement. But that does not happen in the US, because gangs can't take on law enforcement.

By the way: Training cuts more in favor of police than gangs. Police tend to have poor marksmanship, as a group, but gang members have even worse marksmanship. Gangs don't have the whole "academy" system; there is no mandatory curriculum.

An Mp5 is pretty easily concealed, depending on the variant. A no stock variant like here 

is easily concealable. Outer holsters for the mp5 are available for civilian use, and a IWB mp5 holster is aswell. (IWB mp5 holsters arent used as much, they are practically obsolete, athough i know for a fact the secret service uses them). So an mp5 is easily concealable, obviously it will show a little bit, just like having an IWB pistol.. And I know gangs dont often engage in wars, but if the situation were to occur, gangs have good weapons, you said they have no use for them, which is arguable but they still have good weapons. An actual M4A1 would wreck an AR-15, which some departments dont even use. I understand a scenario like this wouldnt actually happen, I realize this has gone to far. I doubt a single cop will even be killed, the media gets a hold on everything, just for a story. Lots of times police investigation isnt even occuring and the media just jumps right on it. Not gonna go in to detail on that though..Again the situation wouldnt likely occur, but if it were a SWAT team, or even just uniforms against a gang - the gang members would probably die. 

Locking for now to sort some things out. Your regularly scheduled thread will be back shortly.

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Okay, various off-topic and flamey posts have been hidden. References to them have been snipped. Everyone needs to just calm down. Thread re-opened; if it continues to be too hot in here, it'll be locked for good.

The pursuit was over and the officers to continue to beat King, even after he was on the ground and compliant. That was what I meant by innocent, but that wasn't the right word to choose.

 

Aight then. No worries :) And yeah u r right about that

FBI is not a special responce team. Swat can do more than the FBI, the FBI is an investigation bureau, they are armed but are not highly trained. Like you said it would need to be a national attack, an act of terror. Although contrary to what you said...You cant really sue the government..You can sue a police agency..but you cant sue the government, the government wont sue itself.

 

ummm do you have any idea what FBI is capable of? iv seen what they have their disposal (that few others have) and they could steam roll any gang. and yes they are very highly trained.  and it doesnt not necessarily need to be an act of terror, although one could argue that gang war against the police is an act of terror i guess.

Not likely. Rifles are even worse choices there, because someone carrying a rifle on the streets of a big city is likely to be under immediate suspicion, and that's just about the worst thing for a criminal. Gangs rarely plan for actual all-out war (it's not exactly good for business), and little bits of violence are much easier with concealed pistols.

 

 

these are some weapons recovered from a Chicago street gang member's property, including high powered rifles, and yes, what appears to be a M72 LAW .

 

 

These weapons were recovered by the Sacramento County Sheriff's Office Gang Task Force from Sacramento gang members. Among them are multiple AK variants, an M16A1, and the butt-stock of what appears to be an MP5.

 

 

And lastly, these weapons were stolen and going to be sold to a Tulsa, OK street gang before a traffic stop led to their recovery.

 

All of these weapons were recovered from highly populated, urban areas. Thinking that street gangs don't have or want these weapons is as ignorant as thinking they don't have the means to obtain them and use them. Gangs don't need a reason to have what they have, nor do they need to carry these around on the street. They could just as easily be used for a drive-by, a planned retaliation, or protecting a stash house. Lest we not forget, gangs ARE in a war, and as long as there's at least two gangs, there will always be a war.

 

Armor piercing ammunition is not widely available (it's much worse than hollowpoint against unarmored targets), and would not be a good choice for

a gang member (who mostly isn't attacking heavily armored targets).

 

Armor piercing rounds were banned for import and sale by the Gun Control Act of 1968, so I can assume you mean full metal jacket rounds, which isn't the case at all. It's very widely available (I've even purchased them off of the internet and had them shipped to my home), considering it's one of the most common rounds, and is pretty effective at stopping somebody, granted it doesn't have the expansion a hollow-point does, but it will tumble and chew through your body regardless.

 

And what's more, an alert I read from the Blue Alert System had stated that Bloods gang members from all over the country are being called to New Jersey to enact a war against the police department and kill some cops, so it's very possible that weapons like these can find their way into a shootout/ambush type scenario there. Lets just hope the police department is prepared for this and prevails, and that everyone stays safe out there.

Edited July 21, 201411 yr by Policefreak55

Something that police really hate is "sawed off shotgun" - They are easily concealable, they have a wide spread, and they are extremely deadly. Anything available to the public is irrelevant, because gangs already have illegal fire arms, let alone hollow points and other things. It's not hard getting a precision weapon with armor piercing rounds, that could mess up even an FBI Swat team. If a gang gets there property stolen (Whether it be drugs, girls, cars) they will engage a war, and they will protect there property with any weapons available.

 

As I said a couple of times earlier, many gang members are ex miltiary. Many criminals are ex military aswell. A good reason for this is probably obamas way of getting more useless soilders to cry like babies in Afghanistan. More times then not, criminals get to the choice to serve in the military (Whether it be the army, marines, mp). Once the come back, they are back on the streets. Now im not saying all criminals are gang members, but lots of times in shootings and robberies the criminals are ex military. Look at this video of what one ex marine did to multiple cops, alone.

 

Something that police really hate is "sawed off shotgun" - They are easily concealable, they have a wide spread, and they are extremely deadly. Anything available to the public is irrelevant, because gangs already have illegal fire arms, let alone hollow points and other things. It's not hard getting a precision weapon with armor piercing rounds, that could mess up even an FBI Swat team. If a gang gets there property stolen (Whether it be drugs, girls, cars) they will engage a war, and they will protect there property with any weapons available.

 

As I said a couple of times earlier, many gang members are ex miltiary. Many criminals are ex military aswell. A good reason for this is probably obamas way of getting more useless soilders to cry like babies in Afghanistan. More times then not, criminals get to the choice to serve in the military (Whether it be the army, marines, mp). Once the come back, they are back on the streets. Now im not saying all criminals are gang members, but lots of times in shootings and robberies the criminals are ex military. Look at this video of what one ex marine did to multiple cops, alone.

 

LMAO!!! This thread skyrocketed out of control rather quickly, hilarious. Let's start this debate back up shall we? I'm in a good mood today.

 

I'm not understanding how you're able to judge people, and you don't know their specific circumstances. Have you ever been on deployment to Afghanistan? Also, where do you get your statistics of most criminals being "ex-military"? I've never heard anything even similar to something such as that.

LMAO!!! This thread skyrocketed out of control rather quickly, hilarious. Let's start this debate back up shall we? I'm in a good mood today.

 

I'm not understanding how you're able to judge people, and you don't know their specific circumstances. Have you ever been on deployment to Afghanistan? Also, where do you get your statistics of most criminals being "ex-military"? I've never heard anything even similar to something such as that.

I did not say most, I said many. Which is a fact. I myself did not serve in Afghanistan, my neighbor is a persian gulf veteran. Ask a veteran of iraq or afghanistan that actually went it the line of fire. Watch Saving Private Ryan, if you havent already. Thats as close to real war as it gets in a movie, many veterans have claimed that. Im not at all judging people, im making statements based of the most useful source possible. Watch some videos of real war footage, many times soldiers cry if there buddy got shot. A good amount of current soldiers are post 9/11 kids joining for some college money. Now they sit in trenches.

I did not say most, I said many. Which is a fact. I myself did not serve in Afghanistan, my neighbor is a persian gulf veteran. Ask a veteran of iraq or afghanistan that actually went it the line of fire. Watch Saving Private Ryan, if you havent already. Thats as close to real war as it gets in a movie, many veterans have claimed that. Im not at all judging people, im making statements based of the most useful source possible. Watch some videos of real war footage, many times soldiers cry if there buddy got shot. A good amount of current soldiers are post 9/11 kids joining for some college money. Now they sit in trenches.

Most or many, they are both synonyms and my question still remains. What sources do you have that state that many veterans look into the life of crime? I just have a very hard time believing that a war veteran would do something like that. I know for a fact that many veterans are mentally distressed. Some even go insane, due to the horrors of war and what they've experienced. There's a difference between crime, and insanity. I'm sure that many veterans aren't criminals, but go insane if not treated.

 

I also don't need any information on how a war can impact a soldier's life. I'm not ignorant to how a war can affect someone. If you haven't noticed my profile picture, It's a US Marine saluting an American flag. Everyone in my family has been in the military. I'm preparing to join in about 9 months.

Most or many, they are both synonyms and my question still remains. What sources do you have that state that many veterans look into the life of crime? I just have a very hard time believing that a war veteran would do something like that. I know for a fact that many veterans are mentally distressed. Some even go insane, due to the horrors of war and what they've experienced. There's a difference between crime, and insanity. I'm sure that many veterans aren't criminals, but go insane if not treated.

 

I also don't need any information on how a war can impact a soldier's life. I'm not ignorant to how a war can affect someone. If you haven't noticed my profile picture, It's a US Marine saluting an American flag. Everyone in my family has been in the military. I'm preparing to join in about 9 months.

If you watched the video, many active criminals join the military just for combat experience. Like I also mentioned earlier lots of people in the Army are there because they dont want to be in prison. There is a decent amount of people wanting to protect the country, and then theres the majority that want a free tuition. I kind of understand how you dont realize how people serving the country can be bad criminal. When it comes to actual war, people are crazy, some guys even carry around pliers to rip out fallen enemies' teeth. People get really crazy. If someone joined the police force and then was a criminal, that'd be different. Although Im not saying people join, and then become criminals. I dont want to be called out for hating on the military, which Im not. I respect your families' bravery, and yours aswell for going to the military. If you do manage to join, you will see what im talking about. People in the army arent professional, as most police officers are. I think we should just chill it down, like the original thread was about gangs threatening police, and now there is an argument about the military. This has gone way out of hand, and I think it would be better to just end the argument.

If you watched the video, many active criminals join the military just for combat experience. Like I also mentioned earlier lots of people in the Army are there because they dont want to be in prison. There is a decent amount of people wanting to protect the country, and then theres the majority that want a free tuition. I kind of understand how you dont realize how people serving the country can be bad criminal. When it comes to actual war, people are crazy, some guys even carry around pliers to rip out fallen enemies' teeth. People get really crazy. If someone joined the police force and then was a criminal, that'd be different. Although Im not saying people join, and then become criminals. I dont want to be called out for hating on the military, which Im not. I respect your families' bravery, and yours aswell for going to the military. If you do manage to join, you will see what im talking about. People in the army arent professional, as most police officers are. I think we should just chill it down, like the original thread was about gangs threatening police, and now there is an argument about the military. This has gone way out of hand, and I think it would be better to just end the argument.

I agree, it's obvious that we aren't going to agree (Oh the irony) on what we're debating on. All we're doing at this point, is exhausting the entire discussion. This thread needs to die, because there isn't anything more to discuss here. Everyone's said what they needed to, and all opinions have been shared and argued. We're just bumping a dead thread at this point LMAO. Nice debating with you.

 

 

these are some weapons recovered from a Chicago street gang member's property, including high powered rifles, and yes, what appears to be a M72 LAW .

 

 

These weapons were recovered by the Sacramento County Sheriff's Office Gang Task Force from Sacramento gang members. Among them are multiple AK variants, an M16A1, and the butt-stock of what appears to be an MP5.

 

 

And lastly, these weapons were stolen and going to be sold to a Tulsa, OK street gang before a traffic stop led to their recovery.

 

All of these weapons were recovered from highly populated, urban areas. Thinking that street gangs don't have or want these weapons is as ignorant as thinking they don't have the means to obtain them and use them. Gangs don't need a reason to have what they have, nor do they need to carry these around on the street. They could just as easily be used for a drive-by, a planned retaliation, or protecting a stash house. Lest we not forget, gangs ARE in a war, and as long as there's at least two gangs, there will always be a war.

 

 

Armor piercing rounds were banned for import and sale by the Gun Control Act of 1968, so I can assume you mean full metal jacket rounds, which isn't the case at all. It's very widely available (I've even purchased them off of the internet and had them shipped to my home), considering it's one of the most common rounds, and is pretty effective at stopping somebody, granted it doesn't have the expansion a hollow-point does, but it will tumble and chew through your body regardless.

 

And what's more, an alert I read from the Blue Alert System had stated that Bloods gang members from all over the country are being called to New Jersey to enact a war against the police department and kill some cops, so it's very possible that weapons like these can find their way into a shootout/ambush type scenario there. Lets just hope the police department is prepared for this and prevails, and that everyone stays safe out there.

 

Still not really impressed. dedicated drug dealers have way more shit.

I agree, it's obvious that we aren't going to agree (Oh the irony) on what we're debating on. All we're doing at this point, is exhausting the entire discussion. This thread needs to die, because there isn't anything more to discuss here. Everyone's said what they needed to, and all opinions have been shared and argued. We're just bumping a dead thread at this point LMAO. Nice debating with you.

 

i agree there is point wasting time talking to someone who has understanding of service. id like to see him go to Afghanistan, see how he likes having ieds everywhere.