Riley24

Right, which is actually one of the reasons why I love living here. I enjoy my 4th Amendment rights for example, and the idea of not having them as a citizen of another country is scary to me. But you're right, it feels like a lot of the times people don't really understand what their rights really are, and on the other end it feels like cops sometimes don't either. This is why education is so important.

I was just saying that it reminded me of it. I'm sure this is an unfaircomparison and there are plenty of counter-examples out there, but it took someone firing the air gun from behind concealment to get the German cops to shoot, whereas the cops in Cleveland shot someone in plain sight. Again, probably a totally unfair comparison with plenty of counter-examples, but it kind of reassured my view that European cops are less quick to resort to lethal force than cops here in the US. Right, I know they're not under any obligation to retreat and that its not always possible, but if they did in this case they would've realized pretty quickly that it wasn't actually a lethal force situation. A lot of times cops shoot when they perceive a deadly threat, and the results are tragic when they're wrong. Maybe retreating isn't the way, but there's gotta be a way to try to avoid stuff like this.

It sounded like they were a little quick with the triggers, but understandable. This reminded me of the Tamir Rice shooting, but instead of firing the gas pistol from behind a closed door, he was sitting in the open not pointing it at anyone. The only thing I fault the German cops for is not retreating. It amazes me that retreating and re-evaluating the situation from a safer place isn't a bigger part of police training. In terms of police shootings, Germany and other European countries are generally better than us. We can debate all we'd like about why that is, but we shouldn't forget it.

Why did he go from stopping him from jay-walking to patting him down for weapons?

I'm guessing like with a lot of cases like this, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Those narrated videos aren't usually the best sources, they present information in a way that they know fits their style, its hard to know how much of it is actually true or if they're leaving out information. Still sounds very fishy though.

Well you can definitely buy armor-piercing bullets here, so if they can't get that banned I guess it makes sense for the police to prepare.

The way the cop walked up to the cab...didn't exactly look like he knew the guy had a gun. Scary. We could've been watching a video with a very different ending...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/news/a28135/heres-what-the-epas-track-car-proposal-actually-means/ So no, they're not taking away your freedums. Even still, it is the job of the federal government, specifically the EPA, to regulate emissions within the country. So the idea of this not meeting those standards and therefore being an illegal modification is actually perfectly reasonable, if you're even willing to admit that the EPA should exist in the first place.

Dogs are dangerous animals, especially pit bulls. That's been proven. I get really tired of my fellow dog lovers saying things like "MY pit bull would never hurt anyone". That's what everyone says, it drives me crazy. And when you think about it, its kind of a miracle that certain breeds are so relatively easily trainable. But pit bulls? I don't know man. The last thing I want is "Sparky" from my local PD chewing someone's face off.

YOU feel nostalgic? Imagine how I feel being a New Yorker. Once around Christmas time it was actually snowing in New York, and I was walking in Midtown listening to Frank Sinatra's Christmas album. When I saw them driving around, I had to catch my breath from the nostalgia hahaha.

"Look it up" "I did, but it proves your point wrong. Where did you get your information?" "Look it up" Hilarious that you still refuse to send me a link that proves your overall point that the police were not responsible for his death. I honestly think you don't have any, and telling me to "read" was all projection. If you had them, you would've shared them by now. Please stop writing essays about anatomy, they're irrelevant unless you're secretly the Staten Island coroner. I'll trust his word over yours, and so far you haven't provided a source for any of your posts about it. Wait so Garner's criminal history isn't relevant because it wasn't included in the video, right? Wait a second... All the while never managing to include a source. Well done. Wait a second, YOU went on a tangent about the kind of person he was. You wrote very beefy paragraph about how bad of a guy he was. Please stop replying if I'm wasting your time, you've said that multiple times and you haven't stopped replying. Here are the facts as proven by the video and the coroner report (both of which I've already provided sources for): -The police claimed he was selling cigarettes -Garner lightly resisted -The police used a banned chokehold on him -The police wrestled him to the ground -Garner gave up immediately -Garner says he can't breathe -Garner dies -The coroner rules it a homicide, and that the police's actions lead to his death Those are the facts based on my research. If you are going to challenge ANY of them, provide a counter-source, otherwise you're wasting MY time. In fact, I'm even pulling punches. I can absolutely give you sources that show that not only did the police's actions lead to his death, but that they killed him. But ooh, that's a scary thing to say about the police.

Sure, completely ignore the rest of my sentence. And apparently the sports world should also stop saying "illegal", since its not what illegal means. Wow, you really nailed me on that usage of a word didn't you. Nice work. Who would I trust to give me a ride home has nothing to do with whether or not a few cops in Staten Island are busting someone's balls for something they did or didn't do. The difference between you and I is that you trust the police based off of nothing, and I don't. You don't know these cops but you trust their bullshit accusation that even they can't defend against simple questioning from Garner. All of that is in the video, and I'm sure at this point I'm sure you've seen it.

Illegal as in against department policy. Although a case could be made that when you use a chokehold that's been banned, you're guilty of wreckless endangerment, but that's a whole other case that unfortunately will never been made since the DA failed to even get an indictment. Funny how that worked out. No, listen back again. The police tell him they saw him reach into his bag, and Garner shouts "WHAT BAG?", and the police don't have an answer. Garner clearly doesn't have a bag. Where is the guy in the green shirt? Oh, the police say he walked away. See but you're trusting that the police are telling the truth without even considering the fact that they might not be telling the truth. As far as the video is concerned (which you say is good evidence), there is no man in the green shirt. Why do you have so much faith in a few plainclothes NYPD cops? See, but I DID look it up. And I found multiple articles referencing how the officer's actions lead to his death, particularity because of the chokehold. I shared those articles with you. What I couldn't find was a single article about how the cause of death was not the fault of the officers. I've asked you for those sources and you still have refused to share them. The facts are not on your side, I suggest you go do some reading.

Right, and I watched that plenty of times. While cameras don't lie, they also don't tell the full story. Coroner reports and plenty of other important facts are not included in witness videos. You've provided no other sources even though you've referenced very specific things. And if you're not willing to share them, then you should at least be honest about what we saw in the video. We saw Garner give up immediately after an illegal chokehold was used. And for minutes before that, Garner is questioning the police about what evidence of a crime they supposedly had, and they're unable to answer any of them. There's no bag or man in a green shirt. This points to the possibility of harassment and even false arrest.

Don't blame me for not accepting your arguments, you contradicted yourself multiple times and wouldn't provide any sources. I don't just accept what random people say on the internet as fact.

What I meant is that the reaction to a man (allegedly) selling a few cigarettes should not be for 10 cops to come take him down violently. Its not worth it. "That's a huge problem in this country and it's one that's increasingly putting the police and this countries citizens at odds. People who firmly believe that the police as a collective term are bad are either close minded nitwits who don't have a real grip on the world or people who've had a bad experience with the police themselves and want to pass blame onto the cops instead of themselves." What you're essentially saying with that is not to generalize the police as an institution. You're saying that we shouldn't object to flaws in police culture or the institution of law enforcement because that's "believing the police as a collective term are bad". You're also suggesting that if someone has a bad experience with a police officer, its their fault. That's a very authoritarian way of thinking. But in your eyes, it's always their fault, isn't it? What's one case that's been in the news in the past three years where you didn't blame the citizen? That's actually the literal definition of a character assassination. Its like when the right wing media reported that Trayvon Martin had traces of pot in his system. Just because you're stating a fact doesn't mean that you don't have an angle, or you're trying to prove a point. You were trying to prove that Eric Garner was not a good person, which you literally said. How about you read? Here's somewhere to start: http://beta.merriam-webster.com/ I'm being very careful about where I'm bringing up race, so far I've barely even mentioned it. And the few time's I've mentioned it, you've freaked out, as most police supporters tend to do. I mentioned it this time because as we know, its harder to be black in America than white. And no, they can absolutely walk away. He says he's not selling cigarettes, we say he pulled them out of his bag, he clearly doesn't have a bag. We say he sold them to someone in a green shirt, but there's no one with a green shirt around. Time to go do something else with taxpayer money. Simple as that. LOL. Of course there's no proof of harassment or profiling. There almost never is. There's no "We harassed this guy" box to check on the paperwork. It often takes lengthy federal investigation to uncover these practices, just look at Ferguson. It took a national spectacle to get the DOJ to investigate. If Eric Garner filed complaints, guess what he would be met with? People like you that would tell him that whatever happened, it was his fault. Things like broken windows policing and stop and frisk encourage harassment and profiling. New York City has a long history of these practices.To say that a poor African American in Staten Island's criminal history is a perfect characterization of his criminal past is near the point of absurdity. And please don't freak out that I pointed out that he's African American. So you DID know that Garner gave up immediately? So when you said that Garner was determined to resist arrest no matter what, you were lying? In what world am I here to be educated by you? What an arrogant mindset. And you don't even provide any sources. Give me a source that proves my sources wrong. But hey, if I'm being a colossal waste of time, you can always stop replying. You fundamentally misunderstand our social world. If you would like to be educated, I suggest listening to the lectures of Allan G. Johnson. And no, Garner didn't make the decision not to go to jail. He said "don't touch me" and moved his hands. He was pissed, and he had every right to be. I could care less about what relatives of murderers say. Eric Garner was not a murderer. So we shouldn't trust reports that he was the "neighborhood peacemaker" when a few minutes before this incident, he was breaking up a fight in his neighborhood? See YOU think YOU have the right to judge him, because you're a "fellow citizen", and you've read his criminal history. But you dismiss an op ed from people who ACTUALLY knew him, because you don't trust their knowledge of him. Again, what incredible arrogance. You really seem to think you've got it all figured out, down to the very details of someone's personality. How about the cops? Am I allowed to start talking about their personalities? Pin ALL the blame on the dead guy, classy. The cops that took him down violently and choked him for not accepting his bullshit arrest? Nah, none of the blame belongs to them (even though by the definition of homicide, their actions contributed to his death). If only Garner knew his role and just accepted the arrest, then all this wouldn't have happened. No, I don't accept that as an argument. Its not factually or ethically based.

I know his crime, I wanted to see if you did. Selling loose cigarettes. That's barely even a crime, if you can't see the obvious case of broken windows policing, you're blind. They started grabbing his hand and he said "don't touch me" and BOY, did they not like that. Then they arrested him for resisting arrest. So they were going to arrest him for loose cigarettes, or did they just get pissed off that he wasn't being nice? Resisting arrest implies that you're under arrest for something. So we're not allowed to talk about law enforcement as a government institution because "its only a few bad apples"? We can't talk about the negative effects of harsh policing on communities because not all cops are bad? We can't point to specific cops and say that the problem extends beyond them because we don't personally know all cops? That's a character assassination, you're justifying his death. None of his past crimes are at all related to the case, you're trying to make yourself feel better about his death by reminding us that he wasn't "a good guy". Woah woah woah, hold on. Now we're talking about personal responsibility and doing the smart thing. Am I allowed to say the same things about the cops? Or would you just tell me how tough of a job it is and that I can't judge their behavior? So unless you've been a poor black man in Staten Island, you have no right to judge Garner's behavior. And you're assuming he can afford court fees and bail. Which, if he's selling 75 cent cigarettes on the street, I'm guessing he can't. Try living like that See this is very telling. You didn't even factor in the possibility of harassment, arbitrary arrests, profiling, and trumped up charges. You have blind faith in the integrity of the New York City justice system. Why? Did you even watch the video? You sound like a police union rep giving a massively faulty account of what happened. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpGxagKOkv8 Please watch it again. Garner gave up immediately. We've been working under the assumption hat Breitbart is telling the truth, which is not exactly a fair one. The coroner ruled that his death was a homicide, because the chokehold and the actions of the police officers. Eric Garner did NOT die of a random heart attack because he was fact. And no offense, but I'm not here to be educated by you. This is not a student-teacher dynamic, we both have access to the information. Its time we brought some sources into this: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/eric-garner-death-ruled-homicide-medical-examiner-article-1.1888808 http://time.com/3618279/eric-garner-chokehold-crime-staten-island-daniel-pantaleo/ http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Eric-Garner-Chokehold-Police-Custody-Cause-of-Death-Staten-Island-Medical-Examiner-269396151.html So people like Eric Garner commit crimes, and good people don't. You seriously think Wall Street bankers don't commit misdemeanors? Come on, that's laughable. Almost as laughable as the "try going to north korea" point. Come on, that's childish. This case is a textbook example of what a police state looks like. Not to say that America as a whole is a police state, because I don't agree with that statement. But THIS case is what a police state looks like. When police officials crack down on low-level crime with violence, its a scary thing. The officer who caused the homicide of Eric Garner was not even indicted. It is INCREDIBLY easy for a prosecutor to get a indictment. Isn't that a wild coincidence? A cop is accused of killing someone and doesn't even get an indictment. Oh, and you don't know shit about Eric Garner. http://news.yahoo.com/friends-man-nyc-chokehold-case-gentle-giant-205839377.html

CA gun laws are very strict, but we don't know yet where they were purchased. They easily could've been bought in another state or modified. Not that I'm bringing up a discussion about gun control lol. I'm just saying "Everyone don't freak out, this doesn't mean its ISIS"

But what did he do? What was his crime? If you say resisting arrest, what arrest was he resisting? You're working off of the assumption that the police don't arbitrarily use force. Let me tell you, when it comes to the NYPD, that is not a fair assumption. So since the officer messed up the choke, its OK? And we should just pretend that it never happened? Finish that first sentence. "Put your hands behind your back, you're under arrest for...." for what? If a cop can't answer why someone is under arrest, he shouldn't be arresting them. I think that's a pretty fair rule of thumb. Why does it annoy you that a dead father who has been harassed his whole life suddenly dies while being forcefully arrested for virtually no crime receives my sympathy? Or am I just another emotional lib that just isn't giving the police enough slack? This is a cultural problem. Not a martial arts one, not a medical one. You're still making the same point and I still have the same problem with it, you're just phrasing it a different way. The police's actions are not justified because of the victim's personal health. So after thoroughly blaming the victim of (at the very least) police harassment and a heart attack for his own death, you're saying I'm painting you as someone with no sympathy? Alrighty. Actually, I never once mentioned race. You brought that into the discussion entirely on your own. And I'm not talking about hallways, I'm talking about street corners. How many Wall Street executives do you think have been body slammed or choked for lets say, jaywalking? There's exceptions to every rule, but we all know that different kinds of people have different kinds of interactions with police. Blame it on race, gender, socio-economic status, whatever you want. If Eric Garner's life mattered more in the eyes of the police, and our society as a whole, this wouldn't have happened. But we let the police pick on people like Eric Garner, because they have no power. Again, I never once mentioned race in the context of this case. Weird that you keep pulling that out of nowhere. But I'm glad that you used the term police state, since that part is actually fairly true. A society in which plainclothes government law enforcement officials violently arrest people for minor crimes is as close to the practical definition of a police state as I ever want to get. Its the same old "broken windows policing" theory. And, um...that's not at all what mono and multiculturalism are. But if you would like to discuss the sociological aspects of police culture, that sounds great.