http://www.wbaltv.com/news/2-prince-georges-county-firefighters-shot/39054830

This is unbelievable.

Edited April 16, 201610 yr by starcraftguy1

That's very sad :(

23 hours ago, starcraftguy1 said:

http://www.wbaltv.com/news/2-prince-georges-county-firefighters-shot/39054830

This is unbelievable.

It's actually not. It's a common threat in the EMS field that new EMTs, paramedics and fire fighters are made aware of during training. Many fire fighters are trained as an EMT, and some Fire Departments (such as the one in this case) have their own Ambulance as opposed to contracting EMS services through a third party company. As an EMS worker, your job is indeed to take medical calls and ensure the well being of those who may be injured or sick. However, the reason this shooting took place boils down to a bad decision: The decision to breach the home without summoning police first. The shooter will likely walk free because the people he attacked were not the police, and were plausibly burglars as far as the man knew. (This may extend to the police eventually, as a Superior Court judge in North Carolina ruled last year that if the police conduct a no-knock entry or raid on your house, you have the right to shoot them dead and not get charged with it. Scary thought, isn't it?).

While some EMS workers wear bullet proof vests, most of them don't, yet they face arguably similar chances of getting shot at or coming under other physical harm while performing their duties each day. In the city of Detroit, there is a fire fighter or EMS worker assaulted once every 30 minutes. There is an EMS-specific self defense class that has gained so much popularity that it now "travels" by hosting seminars in major cities all across the country. Even your EMT/paramedic books you study from suggest  ways to defend yourself, and how to approach an occupied car with somebody who may not want to see you, or might think you're the police. It's done eerily similar to how a police traffic stop at night time goes, using a specific approach to the car, what items to carry in your hands on approach, what items you can throw at a hostile person, which part of the door to stand at, how to position your ambulance or fire truck, how to position the lights so it blinds the driver and passenger, etc.

There has been an ongoing debate for years as to whether EMS workers and fire fighters should carry weapons on them as police do. As somebody with EMS training myself, I believe the answer is yes. I'm not sure if a pistol is the best idea, but I would certainly approve of a taser and pepper spray, along with lapel positioned body cameras attached to each worker to document any physical force and why it had to be used. I'm aware of EMS agencies in rough neighborhoods that carry batons on their belts or extended length flashlights for the purpose of striking somebody if necessary, and I recently read of an agency that has all of their employees conceal carry a pistol on them for the duration of their shift.

Assaults on EMS workers has become an epidemic, and it's one that needs to be addressed, as they don't get equal rights or equal treatment to their police officer counter parts. The charge you get for assaulting a fire fighter or EMS worker usually isn't special. If you attack a cop, it's a felony. If you attack a member of a rescue service, you get a simple battery charge, unless you happen to be in a city where an EMT, paramedic or fire fighter is classified as a city official, in which case you get the elevated charge of 'battery on a city official', although it still doesn't carry the same penalty. And that's wrong.
 

 

 

Edited April 17, 201610 yr by unr3al

On 4/16/2016 at 2:26 AM, starcraftguy1 said:

http://www.wbaltv.com/news/2-prince-georges-county-firefighters-shot/39054830

This is unbelievable.

Something similar happend near me. There was a house fire. I can't remember if it was an arson, but either way an insane man shoots at the firefighters. He killed two, and was then shot dead by police. This doesn't happen often, but it's sad when it does.

It's very sad that these types of incidents are starting to rise and become more of a headline now a days. Years ago you didn't have to worry about any of this but now it's starting to become a big concern. My heart goes out to all of the members and their families. RIP.

14 hours ago, HomerS said:

Something similar happend near me. There was a house fire. I can't remember if it was an arson, but either way an insane man shoots at the firefighters. He killed two, and was then shot dead by police. This doesn't happen often, but it's sad when it does.

That exact incident came to mind.

23 hours ago, unr3al said:

https://us.glock.com/bluelabel

Note from link: " EMT's, Fire Fighters, Volunteer Fire Fighters, and Paramedics (with Picture ID from department front & back) Certifications alone are not authorized and do not qualify ".
So I guess there are possibilities...?
I think non law enforcement should not carry guns including tasers. Pepper spray is just fine, not much training needed.

 

 

 

23 hours ago, unr3al said:

 

Jeez, how long was that shoot-out? Sounded like a friggin warzone...

On 4/17/2016 at 3:44 PM, unr3al said:

 

 

What did I just watch...

An ambulance stranded in the streets of a big American city. AUTOMATIC GUNFIRE echoing through the block, and nobody seems to give a flying f**k. "So we are here in our broken down ambulance, with somebody shooting an automatic rife (Which BTW if was to happen in any other city would get a full terrorism response) but there are no cops around. Oh and someones baby is dying from cardiac arrest. Just another night I guess."

I think Detroit EMS should get guns because it looks like there aren't enough cops anyway! Can somebody please explain to me why people were literally shooting in the streets on new years eve?

On topic, I believe that if there is a need for EMS to be armed with ASP's, spray, taser etc. in one specific area, go for it! If your average Joe can own a gun, surely a person trained in maintaining a safe, calm and clear situation WHILE saving someone's life can handle force. But as I said, don't go around arming them for the hell of it. You don't want to take away the job of a police officer.

I could never be an EMT because I couldn't handle seeing people with really bad injuries as my job, but to those who can and do save people everyday, deserve to feel safe when they do it because none of us would survive without them!

 

19 hours ago, starcraftguy1 said:

That exact incident came to mind.

Note from link: " EMT's, Fire Fighters, Volunteer Fire Fighters, and Paramedics (with Picture ID from department front & back) Certifications alone are not authorized and do not qualify ".
So I guess there are possibilities...?
I think non law enforcement should not carry guns including tasers. Pepper spray is just fine, not much training needed.

Different departments have different policies regarding weapons, as I mentioned earlier. And you're incorrect about the pepper spray. You're required in several states to have a license to own it, and a concealed carry license too, the same as a handgun. You also have to take a safety course, just the same as if you had a firearm. Understand that pepper spray blinds people, but it doesn't stop them from fighting. Pepper spray also can't be used in the back of an ambulance. Everyone in there would get hit with it. A taser would be the best side arm, but even then it would only work if the person you fire it at didn't have multiple layers of clothing and both probes managed to hit.

10 hours ago, SkillfulCorpse said:

What did I just watch...

An ambulance stranded in the streets of a big American city. AUTOMATIC GUNFIRE echoing through the block, and nobody seems to give a flying f**k. "So we are here in our broken down ambulance, with somebody shooting an automatic rife (Which BTW if was to happen in any other city would get a full terrorism response) but there are no cops around. Oh and someones baby is dying from cardiac arrest. Just another night I guess."

I think Detroit EMS should get guns because it looks like there aren't enough cops anyway! Can somebody please explain to me why people were literally shooting in the streets on new years eve?

That's Detroit for you. Since that video was filmed, the police department got a brand new fleet of vehicles and some new equipment, along with a little more staffing, so they are starting to take back the streets slowly, but they have a long way to go. It's still the most dangerous city in the U.S. I believe. There have been a few new Ambulances brought in, but not as many as promised.

But this is part of why crime got so bad in Detroit:
 

And this is why the EMS service was/is so bad in Detroit (3:40 always makes me laugh):
 

And a follow up:
 

I'm a proud American, but this government really needs to get its s*** together. The same can be said about all of the chaos in New Orleans.

Edited April 19, 201610 yr by unr3al

That's why you do only your job... If you're not police, you don't do force entries. Call for the police and wait -- AT LEAST when you don't see a person inside crying for help and clearly in need of it.

Out here the number of assaults on the EMT personnel is increasing too. No guns thanks to our gun laws, but fists, broken bottles and iron bars are not better, considering our average EMT unit is 2 women (a doctor and a nurse), and a male driver who's not exactly trained to be a bodyguard. Under the law assaulting an EMT is like assaulting an ordinary citizen, no harsher penalties for it, and the investigation process is just as complicated.

They proposed a solution here, providing EMS with private security assistance, maybe even armed. But that's too expensive for most of our regions.

On 4/19/2016 at 2:27 AM, Hastings said:

That's why you do only your job... If you're not police, you don't do force entries. Call for the police and wait -- AT LEAST when you don't see a person inside crying for help and clearly in need of it.

Out here the number of assaults on the EMT personnel is increasing too. No guns thanks to our gun laws, but fists, broken bottles and iron bars are not better, considering our average EMT unit is 2 women (a doctor and a nurse), and a male driver who's not exactly trained to be a bodyguard. Under the law assaulting an EMT is like assaulting an ordinary citizen, no harsher penalties for it, and the investigation process is just as complicated.

They proposed a solution here, providing EMS with private security assistance, maybe even armed. But that's too expensive for most of our regions.

Fire departments in parts of the United States do have permission to enter your home under certain circumstances. An apartment complex I lived in used to have a special type of key for the door. It obviously allowed residents inside their houses, but it was also a key that anybody from the fire department could use to open your door. They key was under no circumstances available to police agencies, to keep your fourth amendment right in-tact. So a house breach certainly isn't unheard of. That being said, I don't think it's always the wisest decision. The medics here did what they did in the best interest of who they suspected was a downed patient in need of urgent care (you can thank the neighbor for giving the 911 operator that idea, effectively making the death partially his fault). As stated above, had it been me wearing the turnout gear, I would have called for PD to do a forced entry. They have bullet proof vests and side arms to shoot back, firemen and EMS personnel unfortunately don't have those same advantages. This is just a sad story.

Security sounds nice, but I think the best solution would be to combine the job functions of EMS/Rescue and Police. Imagine a world (as much of a fantasy world as it might be) where every police officer was medically trained to the point where they could save a choking victim by performing an emergency tracheotomy instead of watching them turn blue while an ambulance takes 8 minutes to arrive, or revive a heart attack victim by using intraosseous medication, rather than pounding on someones chest for minutes on end. Imagine a world where every EMS worker could properly document, contain and even take action at crime scenes or crash scenes that they still have to respond to under today's circumstances. Rape cases where EMS workers simply have to tell victims to leave seminal fluid where it is, car crashes where somebody is obviously drunk but you don't necessarily have the legal right to detain them, being unable to do anything more than call out which direction they're running from the scene of the accident they caused. This type of super-job would require a lot of knowledge, and a special type of person, but because of that; it may help in ensuring that these new super-police / super-EMS officers would be comprised of nobody but the absolute best people you could hire. Your average boot camp graduate with a chip on his shoulder couldn't land this job. Nor could a fat, disgruntled EMT who's content working for $14 an hour for the rest of his life.

This is likely never to happen, but it's certainly a tempting proposition.

Edited April 24, 201610 yr by unr3al

4 hours ago, unr3al said:

Fire departments in parts of the United States do have permission to enter your home under certain circumstances.

Security sounds nice, but I think the best solution would be to combine the job functions of EMS/Rescue and Police. Imagine a world (as much of a fantasy world as it might be) where every police officer was medically trained to the point where they could save a choking victim by performing an emergency tracheotomy instead of watching them turn blue while an ambulance takes 8 minutes to arrive, or revive a heart attack victim by using intraosseous medication, rather than pounding on someones chest for minutes on end. Imagine a world where every EMS worker could properly document, contain and even take action at crime scenes or crash scenes that they still have to respond to under today's circumstances. Rape cases where EMS workers simply have to tell victims to leave seminal fluid where it is, car crashes where somebody is obviously drunk but you don't necessarily have the legal right to detain them, being unable to do anything more than call out which direction they're running from the scene of the accident they caused. This type of super-job would require a lot of knowledge, and a special type of person, but because of that; it may help in ensuring that these new super-police / super-EMS officers would be comprised of nobody but the absolute best people you could hire. Your average boot camp graduate with a chip on his shoulder couldn't land this job. Nor could a fat, disgruntled EMT who's content working for $14 an hour for the rest of his life.

This is likely never to happen, but it's certainly a tempting proposition.

FD certainly do have the forced entry right even here but rarely exercise it. Only if there's a 'clear and present emergency' like fire, person in need of care, etc. Of course it's not because they could get shot, that's not common here, but mostly due to possible legal implications. On a side note, firefighters have a ve-e-e-ry low risk of being assaulted here comparing to medics. Maybe it's because they're two meters tall guys with axes trained to break concrete walls :D

Medics don't have that right nor they have an ability, though.

Well, here it won't happen even in theory. In Russia it's 5-7 years or more of ass-busting study to become a medic. We don't have "paramedics" or "EMS" here, the ambulance crew has a doctor and a nurse, all must be medical university grads. Police spends from 1 to 4 years (depends on many things) in the academy, and though it's tough too it's much much much easier than studying medicine. And also there is conscripted police, dumb young men who know only how to handle a baton and follow orders. I wouldn't trust a guy like this to remove a spike from my finger...

Of course everything could be reformed and changed and whatnot, but honestly I believe in everyone doing his job. Or at least leaving medical field to medics. Nothing's wrong in making police officers certified EMS (I heard that is common in the States), though.

21 hours ago, Hastings said:

Medics don't have that right nor they have an ability, though.

Of course everything could be reformed and changed and whatnot, but honestly I believe in everyone doing his job. Or at least leaving medical field to medics. Nothing's wrong in making police officers certified EMS (I heard that is common in the States), though.

Many fire departments have their own Paramedics instead of contracting EMS calls out to 3rd party companies, so they'd have the same liberties as regular fire fighters. Most fire fighters are at least certified EMT's. A fire fighter crew was the first to respond when I dislocated my knee (ouch). Most police officers I know are either not medically trained, or they have "First Responder" training (Emergency Medical Responder). You aren't taught much else other than CPR and how to deliver oxygen to someone if you're "ranked" there. I'd like to see all police trained the same way across the country, but that's a pipe dream right now.

30 minutes ago, unr3al said:

 A fire fighter crew was the first to respond when I dislocated my knee (ouch).

Always was surprised by it. Driving a huge engine has to affect the time of a response, comparing to EMS vehicles.

(I wonder whether it's "the time" and "a response", damn those articles in the morning. How come you all are not confused ._.)

34 minutes ago, unr3al said:

contracting EMS calls out to 3rd party companies

Wait a sec. Are you saying all EMS are private companies, except those who are a part of FDs? I thought at least NYC had a government EMS...

23 hours ago, Hastings said:

Wait a sec. Are you saying all EMS are private companies, except those who are a part of FDs? I thought at least NYC had a government EMS...

I've never heard of a state EMS agency, but I don't live in New York State or NYC. New York City has its own fire department, and they do indeed have an EMS crew rolled into it. It wouldn't make much sense to me to have one dispatch center handle all the calls for an entire state. They'd get slammed with direct 911 calls or re-routes, and they'd get all of the crews mixed up (not just with who's on duty, but splitting up crews into different territories to determine who responds to what call based on location). That's my view on it, anyway.



In my state, the majority of EMS work is covered by a hand full of private EMS companies. They go around selling contracts to towns across the state promising to respond to all EMS calls so fire departments don't have to pay the cost of buying new ambulances, vehicle and equipment upkeep, paramedic salaries and having to pay for a doctor to play the role of medical oversight. They're fairly successful. They don't always have the best reputations with police departments due to incompetence, lack of knowledge of the towns and where calls are going to be located, lack of compassion for townspeople they don't live with and corporate bulls*** these companies put their employees through. I passingly spoke with a person from one of these companies who I crossed paths with. I asked him how he liked his job to make small talk, and he gave me a face and didn't respond with any words. All I could say was "Sorry to hear that".

The biggest company I know of in this state was founded by a family who owned a funeral home. Might as well try and save some of them before you build them a casket, right? Some fire departments do get EMS crews if their townspeople are willing to pay higher sums of money for a paid fire department. Many fire departments are volunteer only where equipment is donated, and they don't have a "budget" to speak of.

The whole issue of contracted EMS crews and Fire Departments is something that never really sat well with me, based on the potential for disastrous results like this:
 

 

Note the lack of turnout gear in the top video and inexperienced/untrained crew, their lack of knowledge of whether or not anybody was inside the building, and their inability to work with "real" fire departments when they show up to help. The house was lost. And keep in mind the homeowner paid these people to show up in case of a fire. The second video is just another example of the crappy equipment this "fire department" was working with. They were trying to respond to a massive forest fire. Key word 'trying'. This is an obvious example of a private Fire Department company simply pocketing all of the money from the contracts they had instead of spending it on equipment and good staff.

That's interesting as hell. I thought I know a great deal about the US, but now I realise I didn't know anything. 

4 hours ago, unr3al said:

 he gave me a face 

Nice expression, I'll make sure to remember that one. 

4 hours ago, unr3al said:

It wouldn't make much sense to me to have one dispatch center handle all the calls for an entire state. They'd get slammed with direct 911 calls or re-routes, and they'd get all of the crews mixed up (not just with who's on duty, but splitting up crews into different territories to determine who responds to what call based on location). That's my view on it, anyway.

I didn't say anything about statewide dispatch center. To my knowledge in most European countries and in Russia as well FD and EMS are two separate governmental structures, working together through unified dispatch system. I can't speak for Europe but in Russia (which is a federation), there's a dispatch center for a region (lets say a county). Operator receives the call and simply forwards it to the local subdivision of the respective service, and they in turn decide what unit to send where. All is easier when a whole country is organised into the army-like system (not that I approve this)

4 hours ago, unr3al said:

The biggest company I know of in this state was founded by a family who owned a funeral home. Might as well try and save some of them before you build them a casket, right?

To my knowledge, first American EMS companies were founded by funeral home owners, with hearses as ambulances (well if a patient didn't make it you can always take that red light off and change the route, can't you?). I even did a post on that in Mind Boggling classic cars thread :)

Indiana, funeral parlor. 

As you can see, those "ambulances" lacked any specific medical equipment.

This has something to boast about. 

I like the idea of so many private companies but one has to remember that business is supposed to be about profits while civil service is about serving people. So no wonder if some business people are trying to increase their profits, making customers the injured party. 

In Russia fire fighters are considered military personnel, have an army-like rank system and training. We have an actually very complicated system with the Federal ministry of emergencies, local firefighting troops, and some other services but generally it works out well enough. 

17 hours ago, Hastings said:

To my knowledge, first American EMS companies were founded by funeral home owners, with hearses as ambulances (well if a patient didn't make it you can always take that red light off and change the route, can't you?).

I like the idea of so many private companies but one has to remember that business is supposed to be about profits while civil service is about serving people. So no wonder if some business people are trying to increase their profits, making customers the injured party.

The first documented use of ambulances was during the Napoleonic wars. In America, the first ambulance companies started out as EMS pre-hospital care divisions owned by Commercial Hospital in Ohio and Bellevue Hospital in New York in the late 1800's. As a widespread public service, EMS as we know it today (in America) resulted from the 'White Paper' report published by the National Academy of Sciences in 1966. It standardized how EMS worked country-wide which thankfully meant that with time, your chances of survival didn't depend (as much) upon where you lived.

The idea of profits over saving lives as you mentioned above demonstrates the selfishness and I'd even argue evil through greed that people have even in the 21st century. I'd like a reform, but that's not going to happen.

On 4/18/2016 at 10:29 AM, SkillfulCorpse said:

What did I just watch...

An ambulance stranded in the streets of a big American city. AUTOMATIC GUNFIRE echoing through the block, and nobody seems to give a flying f**k. "So we are here in our broken down ambulance, with somebody shooting an automatic rife (Which BTW if was to happen in any other city would get a full terrorism response) but there are no cops around. Oh and someones baby is dying from cardiac arrest. Just another night I guess."

I think Detroit EMS should get guns because it looks like there aren't enough cops anyway! Can somebody please explain to me why people were literally shooting in the streets on new years eve?

On topic, I believe that if there is a need for EMS to be armed with ASP's, spray, taser etc. in one specific area, go for it! If your average Joe can own a gun, surely a person trained in maintaining a safe, calm and clear situation WHILE saving someone's life can handle force. But as I said, don't go around arming them for the hell of it. You don't want to take away the job of a police officer.

I could never be an EMT because I couldn't handle seeing people with really bad injuries as my job, but to those who can and do save people everyday, deserve to feel safe when they do it because none of us would survive without them!

 

The situation in Detroit is completely insane. A HUGE portion of Detroit's residents left the city, it's just a mess.

On 4/19/2016 at 8:52 PM, unr3al said:

Different departments have different policies regarding weapons, as I mentioned earlier. And you're incorrect about the pepper spray. You're required in several states to have a license to own it, and a concealed carry license too, the same as a handgun. You also have to take a safety course, just the same as if you had a firearm. Understand that pepper spray blinds people, but it doesn't stop them from fighting. Pepper spray also can't be used in the back of an ambulance. Everyone in there would get hit with it. A taser would be the best side arm, but even then it would only work if the person you fire it at didn't have multiple layers of clothing and both probes managed to hit.

That's Detroit for you. Since that video was filmed, the police department got a brand new fleet of vehicles and some new equipment, along with a little more staffing, so they are starting to take back the streets slowly, but they have a long way to go. It's still the most dangerous city in the U.S. I believe. There have been a few new Ambulances brought in, but not as many as promised.

But this is part of why crime got so bad in Detroit:
 

And this is why the EMS service was/is so bad in Detroit (3:40 always makes me laugh):
 

And a follow up:
 

I'm a proud American, but this government really needs to get its s*** together. The same can be said about all of the chaos in New Orleans.

That video you've seen, I've already seen it probably last year and I think this vid was posted around 2011-2013ish. Detroit Police Department has since, received new vehicles.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/vehicles/news/2013/03/25/private-companies-donate-100-vehicles-to-detroit-pd.aspx

and if you guys ever watched Nightwatch which I've seen this horrific scene on assault on EMTs, which is EMTs that face on a regular basis:

When I was watching one of nutnfancy's videos of his son going down on his bike long time ago, this is an armed fire personal that caught my eye.

 

I stress that fire and emt should have at least a defensive weapon to protect themselves and their coworkers since assaults are very common and they are first responders like police officers, such as less lethals = tasers, batons, pepper spray, etc. and certification for carrying a firearm. I swear its annoying have an EMT or FIRE wait for POLICE for them to clear the scene

Edited April 24, 201610 yr by wteoh1

5 hours ago, wteoh1 said:

That video you've seen, I've already seen it probably last year and I think this vid was posted around 2011-2013ish. Detroit Police Department has since, received new vehicles.

I stress that fire and emt should have at least a defensive weapon to protect themselves and their coworkers since assaults are very common and they are first responders like police officers, such as less lethals = tasers, batons, pepper spray, etc. and certification for carrying a firearm. I swear its annoying have an EMT or FIRE wait for POLICE for them to clear the scene

Yup I mentioned the new fleet of vehicles and (few) new hires earlier. The city still has a long way to go.
 

 

I highly agree that EMS should have some kind of self defense available to them besides their fists and feet. But I'm not sure I'd want them clearing out a dangerous scene. That's not their job.