You know, I'm quite sure that I've noticed the chaos going on recently. I don't need to be enlightened on what this thread is about, if anything, you do.

 

If you knew the happenings on your site then no stupid references to me and my apparent huge ego would have to be made. I don't go around causing drama in every single place where possible. But of course, one incident with me makes me the perfect example for you to use because of the modder that I am. Almost every single mod that has been uploaded lately has had a flame war follow, something which that cannot be compared to an incident from a few months back.

 

As I've said many times, go take a look at your database and the absolute mess that resides there. You certainly ought to realize that people are looking for quality, not poorly made modifications. If everyone is allowed to upload their modifications, no matter the quality and experience, then who on earth is going to care about making use of the forums for feedback and advice? Using the downloads database as a platform for feedback on first-timer mods is honestly poor and affects the image of your site. If someone creates an absolutely horrible mod, aren't users allowed to at least give their opinion on it? I mean, I was looking at a mod which was uploaded to this site a few days ago (absolutely horrific quality), all the comments referring to the poor quality were removed and only one left over where the mod was referred to as "excellent". Great moderation tactics.

 

When you're in a situation where everyone wants to be a modder and feedback is rejected,  then obviously situations such as these will arise.

 

See the problem is that you say "people are looking for quality, not poorly made modifications".  That is definitely true for me, it'll be true for you and it'll be true for many others as well.  The thing is, though, there are actually people who don't mind so much about the quality of the modifications.  I'm not sure if you were around back when LCPDFR was started, but the first release of LCPDFR was anything but a quality modification.  Still, it was accepted on GTAForums and it was accepted on GTAGarage despite the fact that it crashed frequently and lacked polish and everything else.  Still, despite all of this, it was hugely popular.

 

Now, the impression that I get from your opinion is basically that you don't think that low quality mods should be allowed in the downloads section.  I would argue if that was the case back at GTAF though, LCPDFR would never have been allowed.

 

I guess the simplest way to put it is like this.  If there's a mod of fairly low quality, say for example a really bad texture job of a police car from Edinburgh, if there's even just 20 people that download it and really enjoy it despite this, isn't it worth having in the downloads section?

 

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As far as the opinions on stuff and comments getting removed goes, could you give me a link to the file in question?  Everyone is allowed to give their opinion, we just expect that criticism should be made in a constructive manner.

Part of the issue I think is everyone wants to make mods.

If I may compare it to another older game and their community....Over in that game's community, people make skin, drama happens but the big mods are mostly made by teams, they do the big mods. But there's strict guidelines there too.

A GTA analogy would be G17 made LCPDFR instead of one guy coding it on his own, but modders couldn't alter the handling.dat or exe file, everything else was fair game. You may think that restricting, but there's a lot of creativity there. How's that link back to GTA? Well, I feel the lack of guidelines and the, and this is going to sound hypocritical as I paint skins for games, ease of getting into modding or texture editing is partly to blame, that anyone can go and make a car and upload it and get feedback on  LOT of sites.
 

Constructive criticism is a powerful thing how you chose to take isn't my or anyone elses problem only yours

See the problem is that you say "people are looking for quality, not poorly made modifications".  That is definitely true for me, it'll be true for you and it'll be true for many others as well.  The thing is, though, there are actually people who don't mind so much about the quality of the modifications.  I'm not sure if you were around back when LCPDFR was started, but the first release of LCPDFR was anything but a quality modification.  Still, it was accepted on GTAForums and it was accepted on GTAGarage despite the fact that it crashed frequently and lacked polish and everything else.  Still, despite all of this, it was hugely popular.

 

Now, the impression that I get from your opinion is basically that you don't think that low quality mods should be allowed in the downloads section.  I would argue if that was the case back at GTAF though, LCPDFR would never have been allowed.

 

I guess the simplest way to put it is like this.  If there's a mod of fairly low quality, say for example a really bad texture job of a police car from Edinburgh, if there's even just 20 people that download it and really enjoy it despite this, isn't it worth having in the downloads section?

This is where we differ.

 

Scripts are different to that of models and textures, this is easily noticeable when comparing the amount of scripts versus the amount of models and textures. Sure, everyone is learning to make mods but why the massive urge to release half-made modifications when they could make use of the site's forums for help, advice, and suggestions? I doubt a script is as easy as opening paint, slapping a few lines onto a template and submitting it as a mod.

 

I'm not going to debate this any further, I've mentioned these suggestions in numerous threads and you always throw them back. Whether you decide to consider them or not is your choice, I'm not bringing it up again. You're only going to instigate drama by calling me out, but I'm expected to react in a mature manner when insulted by your stupid references? Pfah.

This has happened to a lot of forums, websites, communities before - because everyone can be completely anonymous on the internet. See youtube? People with opposite opinions meet and they tend to write harsher than they would talk if they met their "opponent" face to face - because they're anonymous. We may not realize it right away while we're writing our "constructive criticism" (and I think we really believe it is constructive in that moment we're writing it), so we use certain words or expressions that, in a face to face conversation, would be taken as an offense. I think in some way this anonymity makes us speak more openly, more honestly but on the other hand it is harsher, can be offensive. So I think if we just re-read what we wrote before we post it and try to be diplomatic, the receiver of that criticism can accept the critique easier and won't feel offended.

This is where we differ.

 

Scripts are different to that of models and textures, this is easily noticeable when comparing the amount of scripts versus the amount of models and textures. Sure, everyone is learning to make mods but why the massive urge to release half-made modifications when they could make use of the site's forums for help, advice, and suggestions? I doubt a script is as easy as opening paint, slapping a few lines onto a template and submitting it as a mod.

 

I'm not going to debate this any further, I've mentioned these suggestions in numerous threads and you always throw them back. Whether you decide to consider them or not is your choice, I'm not bringing it up again. You're only going to instigate drama by calling me out, but I'm expected to react in a mature manner when insulted by your stupid references? Pfah.

 

I've not insulted you, I've not called you out.  A posted a link to a thread where you were one of many participants.  As far as I can remember you've not actually given an answer yet as to why your opinion differs regarding that as well.  If you actually have a plausible reason for why the low quality texture in the example I made up shouldn't be allowed, then I'd like to hear it.

 

I agree fully with not allowing content with incomplete credits, with inadequate descriptions and with poor screenshots, etc.  I don't really think there's any place in the downloads section for people that can't be bothered to fill in the information and make the file look somewhat presentable, but I don't think it is our place to pick and choose what's of sufficient quality when it comes to the actual mod itself.

 

If someone takes an unlocked car into a modelling program and sticks one of the lightbars from the development resources section onto it and then deletes all the ELS parts and adds the siren dummies onto it, effectively making it a non-ELS lightbar - is this enough to let them submit it to the downloads section?  If someone just sticks the lightbar on it but makes a bunch of snazzy pictures and graphics to go along with it and releases it in a very presentable format, is this enough to let them submit it to the downloads section?

 

I just think it's far too subjective.  The only time I can think of that something shouldn't be allowed to be submitted is if is really badly broken, for example a model that someone's managed to screw up so bad that it crashes your game as soon as it spawns.

 

Is it wrong to have lots of variations of the same thing?  I don't see why it is, surely the more choice that our members have, the better.  Would you complain if a shop had 20 varieties of chilled drinks?  What about if it only had 3?

Okay, first I want to just add, can this post please not be moved to suggestions because it isn't. It's a discussion topic... Thanks :)

 

 

 

I don't know how many times this needs to be said, by mods, or staff, but it's time that people get this through their skulls. 

 

Every single post I see, every single mod I see uploaded, some gallery pictures, every single friggin thing on here, SOMEONE has to be a smart ass and comment something rude or asinine. It's pathetic! So much DRAMA is filled on this website it's like a 6th Grade Girls Locker-room!! No one can get along with fellow modders, every 2 minutes someone is supposedly stealing someones work.

 

Jesus christ, this isn't a "Policing Community" anymore! Obviously a lot of the younger kids here want to be police officers. What kind of friggen example are we setting to the new members of the community? If you want to be a cop in real life, then talk shit on here, good luck getting anywhere with that attitude. 

 

There's a difference between CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, and DESTRUCTIVE criticism. 

 

Everyone needs to grow up and get over their goddamn issues with people because you're just contributing the poor future of this place.

We need stricter rules. There are a lot of people on this site who are only here to troll or disrupt the community. We will eventually be forced to act on these people.

As you might have noticed, we're beefing up our moderation staff and by the end of next week, we'll have four more moderators on hand to deal with this stuff.  Of course, we'll have more to say about this when the time comes.  I'm hoping also that with some of the things which are coming up in the next couple of months (GTA V and something else which we won't name because, well, that would be telling), there will hopefully be a better atmosphere.

 

Unfortunately every time that we crack down on this sort of thing, someone posts a topic complaining about how we've turned into Nazi Germany and how we're worse than North Korea, etc. etc.  It would be really helpful for us if people could report things like this and then when we start taking action about it, it would be even more helpful if everyone could refrain from jumping on the Nazi/SS/North Korea/China/Communist (lol)/Whatever else bandwagon.

 

The sad fact is that this place revolves around a large modding community, and when you have people with egos the size of Jupiter, people who just aren't old enough and mature enough to handle themselves properly and people that have it stuck in their thick skull that they are the best in the world at everything, all you need is for all of these to combine along with the new modders and the majority of the community who enjoy the content on offer, it is a very combustible element to say the least.

 

Indeed, if you want an example of what happens when all of that combines, look no further than this: '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>>

 

 

We need stricter rules. There are a lot of people on this site who are only here to troll or disrupt the community. We will eventually be forced to act on these people.

 

 

I'm quoting both of you guys in hope you notice this post lol.

 

I can't agree more with what Jay said. But the point of it is that people need to grow up. As a community everyone needs to get over the drama and crap that happens here. Overall what we're dealing with, in my opinion, is the fact of egos. Since everyone is so secure about their modification knowledge, it seems they resort to picking on those who don't to feel like they need power. Stricter rules, may help. Adding 4 more mods though, I don't know if that will help. 

 

Personally, if the current mods get more strict, I think that'd be a major help!

The ratings feature in the downloads section is getting rather like the YouTube dislike feature recently. I have known decent mods that instantly get bombarded with 1-star ratings the moment they get approved because of some trolls/haters with multiple accounts who are very active on these forums and the download section, keeping tabs on their "favourite" modders.

 

I think it would be a good idea if there was either:

1) A requirement to give a reason for ratings < 5 or that affect the total score, similar to what used to be used in the negative rep feature on forum posts, or

2) A like-only feature to prevent negative ratings, so that trolls would not be able to damage mod ratings (if the mod was really that shit, no one would rate it high anyway)

 

Some modders who have just started out with less publicity, have been attacked quite viciously by these "trolls" and they lack the audience to repair the ratings. As a consequence, their work gets put to the bottom of the list and their talent missed out. I think something should be done about this. Especially since we have a system that actually filters out mods by their rating - see "View all 5 star vehicle textures" filter for instance.

Edited August 25, 201312 yr by Double Doppler

The ratings feature has been subject to multiple unjust attacks recently. A user I suspect repeatedly posts harsh non-constructive criticizm, and appears to own multiple accounts, just to attack a specific portion of this community, perhaps because he is in the same production sector and feels threatened.

It would be good if there was a requirement that the user give a reason to star ratings of < 5. Or a like-only rating, with no way of harming the mods original one - similar to what we now (thankfully) have on the forum post reps. The idea is to prevent damage to the modification's reputation from undesirable and ungenuine individuals.

Each time I upload one of my mods now it's subject to immediately getting 1-star spam ratings - it's only thanks to my community that the ratings go back an agreeable rate. But some talented modders that have just started out and don't have such a backing at the moment don't get that boost - and their work ends up getting unoticed because of it.

There's no logic to the 1 star, compared to the positive feedback in the comments section. The way our ratings system is going is rather like the abuse of the dislike button on YouTube videos, spammed by trolls and haters, NOT by genuine dislikes. I disable mine for this reason on YouTube but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be possible on here.

So we need tighter restrictions on content star ratings, especially when some content-search features are based upon ratings, such as "View all 5 star vehicle textures".

 

Our website is growing much larger in member size so a new rating and moderation system should be in place.

 

Yeah, that's a great point about the downloads ratings.  I think we'll have a new system for that shortly, probably something where you can only give positive votes, like the forum rep.

 

Regarding moderation, with our extra staff we'll be able to cover a lot more ground and I'm hopeful that because of this, more will be done to combat trolls and abusive members who have no place here.

Yeah, that's a great point about the downloads ratings. I think we'll have a new system for that shortly, probably something where you can only give positive votes, like the forum rep.

Regarding moderation, with our extra staff we'll be able to cover a lot more ground and I'm hopeful that because of this, more will be done to combat trolls and abusive members who have no place here.

I have edited my post. Please reconsider.

On regards to the current ratings - do you think the current mods could have points added to them based on the current ratings that they have, if there was a new system? It would be a shame to see great mods such as vDH Police Helper and Bravehearts Policing Script go back to zero again.

Edited August 25, 201312 yr by Double Doppler

I feel like the rating system should be monitored, like in the rep system. It is too easy for people to leave an anonymous rating on profiles, and on modifications. It is practically begging for the trolls to mess with it. I feel like the moderators should be able to see it, so they could say whether it was genuine, or just a personal attack.

I feel like the rating system should be monitored, like in the rep system. It is too easy for people to leave an anonymous rating on profiles, and on modifications. It is practically begging for the trolls to mess with it. I feel like the moderators should be able to see it, so they could say whether it was genuine, or just a personal attack.

Oh, I certainly agree, and believe me it will. The problem right now is moderators cannot view who rated what file, what time, their IP, etc.

This will change in the coming days.

Oh, I certainly agree, and believe me it will. The problem right now is moderators cannot view who rated what file, what time, their IP, etc.

This will change in the coming days.

Is that possible?

I know from the IP Forums the clan I am apart uses the only feature is to require download to rate.

 

Anyhow, there is just a lot of drama related to modding. Where you got the part, who gave it to you etc. It's worse than a bunch of girls at a high school lunch. 

Unfortunately people carry grudges and that's that. 

As most flaming events happen on the gallery and the download sections, would it be better to remove the download reviews and encourage users to create a forums post for WIP/REL?

And I am not really sure how to prevent gallery flaming besides having maybe a moderator tasked with focusing on the gallery?

 

On a side note, I find it ironic that there are arguments on this thread which is about stopping arguments :P 

Edited August 25, 201312 yr by Pengi

To prevent gallery/downloads flaming, just report, report, report. We can't monitor everything, but reports can bring to our attention things that we otherwise missed. If you see a flamewar happening, report instead of joining in - trying to stop it yourself can just make it worse.

I'm just going to drop in here.

 

I usually don't like to get involved in debates, because I don't like arguing with people.

I prefer to keep people happy, and respect them as would respect me. 

 

But in my honest opinion, practice makes perfect. If someone uploads a crappy texture or model, chances are that they will get better as time goes on. 

The first time you played a sport, you probably weren't very good. You didn't get better by watching videos, reading about it, etc.. You got better by HANDS ON experience. And the only way that can happen is by doing it.

Watching tutorials, for example, will give you knowledge on some things, but not everything. 

 

You cannot expect a first time modeler to be on the skill level of EVI, KevinDV, Cj24, or some of the other top modders we have on here. Another problem is that some of these first time modders don't know the difference between constructive criticism and flaming. In my opinion, both parties are wrong. Right now, there are a lot of first time modders, which is expected on a growing website or community in general. 

I'm just going to drop in here.

 

I usually don't like to get involved in debates, because I don't like arguing with people.

I prefer to keep people happy, and respect them as would respect me. 

 

But in my honest opinion, practice makes perfect. If someone uploads a crappy texture or model, chances are that they will get better as time goes on. 

The first time you played a sport, you probably weren't very good. You didn't get better by watching videos, reading about it, etc.. You got better by HANDS ON experience. And the only way that can happen is by doing it.

Watching tutorials, for example, will give you knowledge on some things, but not everything. 

 

You cannot expect a first time modeler to be on the skill level of EVI, KevinDV, Cj24, or some of the other top modders we have on here. Another problem is that some of these first time modders don't know the difference between constructive criticism and flaming. In my opinion, both parties are wrong. Right now, there are a lot of first time modders, which is expected on a growing website or community in general. 

 

True, I don't expect them to be expert but, I will not sugar coat their mods if they are new, if it is low quality, and I give it a 1-3 out of 5, they should understand they need to improve (along with why and tips on how to). But some people take anything that is not "Amazing! 5/5" as hate, or destructive criticism, that is a huge problem. I admit I was a "gad" when my first model came out, but previously I made 20 practice models beforehand, my second model was after 10+ practice models, and it had tons more work put into it. I have no idea why people just release their work without trying to get it as best as possible. Maybe that's just me but....

 

I understand the growing number of people wanting to be "modders" that's okay, but if they never want to improve because people give them a false sense that their mods are really great from the comments, they feel they have no need to improve, at least some do that.  

 

I agree with most of your statement, but this was all of my honest opinion.

Is that possible?

I know from the IP Forums the clan I am apart uses the only feature is to require download to rate.

 

Anyhow, there is just a lot of drama related to modding. Where you got the part, who gave it to you etc. It's worse than a bunch of girls at a high school lunch. 

Unfortunately people carry grudges and that's that. 

As most flaming events happen on the gallery and the download sections, would it be better to remove the download reviews and encourage users to create a forums post for WIP/REL?

And I am not really sure how to prevent gallery flaming besides having maybe a moderator tasked with focusing on the gallery?

 

On a side note, I find it ironic that there are arguments on this thread which is about stopping arguments :P

We're quite good at developing IPB plugins and hooks. A lot of the stuff on this forum (e.g. our group system) is a massive hook.