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DLM3

Tone down default backup?

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I don't want to sound like I am complaining but I personally find that the bunch of units joining in a pursuit right at the start takes away all the fun. Most suspects don't even get the chance to go far and pursuits quickly come to an end. Heck as a player you don't even have to do anything, I went into a Maverick out of curiosity and was watching things unfold: you don't even need to play, you get a callout, you accept it and then you just watch over a dozen of officers taking care of the situation in less than 1 minute.

That's a thing, as a player, that we should be able to control. So I really hope that it is something that will be looked at and tweaked. Starting a callout with one unit already in pursuit is fine, then let us decide if we want backup but please don't let the game play for us :wink:

Edited by DLM3

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There may be something in the backup.xml. It's located in your Grand Theft Auto V/LSPDFR folder. Right click on it, and open it with notepad. If there's nothing in relation to that inside, I don't know if there's any other way to tone down the backup that spawns at a callout. 

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The XML file doesn't let you set up that kind of thing. You can specify the number of officer occupying a vehicle but you have no say about the amount of units joining at the start.

I think it comes from the fact that roaming officers now automatically join in a pursuit. While I was in my Maverick during an armed suspect pursuit, I was on scene in less than 10 seconds, they already had the suspect's vehicle boxed and a bunch of units on foot --including LSPD forces, highway bikers and FIB-- were about to apprehend the suspect... It took less than 30 seconds and I haven't done anything to help. And that's how the majority of callouts ended.

Edited by DLM3

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35 minutes ago, DLM3 said:

The XML file doesn't let you set up that kind of thing. You can specify the number of officer occupying a vehicle but you have no say about the amount of units joining at the start.

I think it comes from the fact that roaming officers now automatically join in a pursuit. While I was in my Maverick during an armed suspect pursuit, I was on scene in less than 10 seconds, they already had the suspect's vehicle boxed and a bunch of units on foot --including LSPD forces, highway bikers and FIB-- were about to apprehend the suspect... It took less than 30 seconds and I haven't done anything to help. And that's how the majority of callouts ended.

I'll ask if it'd be possible to have this option, since I imagine it can be pretty annoying for some people that don't want a lot of NPC cruisers. 

Edited by Original Light

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1 hour ago, DLM3 said:

You just watch over a dozen of officers taking care of the situation in less than 1 minute.

That's a thing, as a player, that we should be able to control. So I really hope that it is something that will be looked at and tweaked. Starting a callout with one unit already in pursuit is fine, then let us decide if we want backup but please don't let the game play for us :wink:

We're walking a fine line with this topic. The truth is that in the real world, you're not the only cop on the planet, and you're not always in charge. You will also be joining in progress pursuits, some that have only one car, some that have a whole fleet and two choppers. That's the reality of police work in California, along with many other states. In my months of playing, this has not been a common problem.

I would give the game more than a few hours of play time before we start writing in new suggestions, guys.

While I can't speak for the development team, I'm sure they appreciate good feedback, and being able to customize the game is something G17 takes seriously. The way backup works has changed from version .2b, and you can expect it to change further as LSPDFR continues to go through more revisions. Please give the developers some time, and take some time on your own to play the mod before hurling a big to-do list at them.

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I had just joined a pursuit where there were multiple cars, bikes and heli's chasing 4 perps in a fast car all over the map. 

Heaps of fun, and we finally boxed him in just outside the tunnel at Fort Zancudo, by landing a heli at one end of the tunnel - no escape. The pursuit started back in the city just as I drove out of the downtown station.

 

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5 hours ago, unr3al said:

We're walking a fine line with this topic. The truth is that in the real world, you're not the only cop on the planet, and you're not always in charge. You will also be joining in progress pursuits, some that have only one car, some that have a whole fleet and two choppers. That's the reality of police work in California, along with many other states. In my months of playing, this has not been a common problem.

The issue is that this is also a game. And it should be up to the player to choose how they want to play instead of being forced to see other units doing all the work for them. My experience may be limited, one night compared to your months of testing, but I have had quite a few callouts now (playing Vanilla and forcing them) and I have seen you guys streaming last night, easily 2/3 of the pursuits can be resolved by the other units alone without your intervention. That's where you are crossing the fine line as a game designer (yes you're doing game design!), while it looks cool the first few times you can't have the game play for the player. Imagine if I launch Dragon Age or Mass Effect and my party deals with the enemies while I sit back and watch... You are the player, you're still at the center of the action, this is not RL.

The thing is —and I am certainly not alone— that I want to keep my interactions with the AI including police forces at a minimum because the AI is stupid. I am not blaming you and it's even not that the AI itself is dumb but we are (ab)using it in a way it was not intended to so obviously it doesn't behave the best way.

So I know I sound like complaining but a few months ago when we were told that we would be able to customize our backup I didn't have their outfit in mind (that's a cool addition, don't get me wrong but that doesn't help on the field which badge my units show up :smile: ) and yes please add this option to the XML file. For instance I was also expecting to be able to say for certain that a bike unit would show up if I wanted my backup to be a bike. I know that I can remove police4 from the State vehicles in the XML (that's what I did) but that also means that I will never see a State police car... That's the kind of full customization of backups that I was expecting.

Edited by DLM3

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In the hour or so I've had time to play so far, this was only really an issue with the default callouts. With third party callouts or traffic stop-initiated pursuits it was fine (unless of course you're right near a police station, which adds a wonderful new layer of immersion IMO).

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36 minutes ago, Darkmyre said:

 (unless of course you're right near a police station, which adds a wonderful new layer of immersion IMO).

And this is probably the biggest improvement in 0.3 in my opinion. You guys have done a great job with that, there was nothing more enraging than being engaged on a pursuit on the freeway, waiting for backup to catch up while units on the side didn't give a damn. But there had to be a middle ground between no backup and 5 cars + 1 air unit showing up at once on top of the suspect...

Edited by DLM3

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Well you could try not calling additional backup. As far as I can tell its back to the LCPDFR system where units around you will also join in on the pursuit. Its not a case of the callout adding additional units to the call, so much as units that are already in the area jumping in.

I personally haven't had anything overwhelming as of yet, well ... unless I spammed the backup button ...

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21 minutes ago, AshHill07 said:

Well you could try not calling additional backup.

This is without calling any backup. Armed suspect pursuit? 4 cars already spawn right almost upon the suspect...

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13 minutes ago, DLM3 said:

This is without calling any backup. Armed suspect pursuit? 4 cars already spawn right almost upon the suspect...

I dunno then I'm not having that issue at all, even with my usual habit in calling in 2 additionals I'm still rarely at more than 4 cars by the end, often without a helicopter either.

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I am with @DLM3 on this. If you take a default LSPDFR pursuit call, the moment you accept it, 2-3 helicopters and anywhere from 4-7ish car units are all over the suspects. Basically you just drive to the red dot and if anyone is still alive, they'll be fleeing on foot from the army of police after them and you clean it up.

Edited by Kilyin

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Well then that's the challenge drive faster and eventually you'll catch up instead of driving miss daisy to a pursuit. That's the fun in it going fast since it's a game and challenge of not wrecking or causing havoc worse then what already is in gta. I think it's fine as is. Plus in future call outs where there is more heavy armed suspects this will be a moot issue I believe as not all those will be around that spawn such as heavy armed terrorist callouts. Being a game it is what it is I think. One can always revert to previous if they want bare world. Just my thought.

51 minutes ago, code3response1010 said:

I agree. I like the auto backup very much but, it does seem a bit excessive I am almost battling for lead position lol.

Being a game and gta it's a doggy dog world. If I got to pit a couple units out of the way I will. Makes for fun. Lspd style everyman for himself wanting a captains award.

1 hour ago, DLM3 said:

This is without calling any backup. Armed suspect pursuit? 4 cars already spawn right almost upon the suspect...

Is it possible your just in a area by chance where allot of ai units happen to circle endlessly? I've noticed certain parts of LS that seem to naturally have saturated patrol ai.  I know out in boonies it's different in allot areas and takes bit for them to catch up. This was in previous versions also of gta itself.

Edited by Azteco

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2 hours ago, Azteco said:

Well then that's the challenge drive faster and eventually you'll catch up instead of driving miss daisy to a pursuit.

 

No. Just no. I'm sorry but you maybe missed the part where I said that I was watching how things were unfolding from a Police Maverick. That means that I was on scene almost immediately. When you are on scene in 10 seconds and things are about to be resolved there is a problem.

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I haven't noticed anything acting like this everytime I'm sure there ewill be times a few call outs in row or pursuits will have fast reaction specially if one takes a call or pursuit immediately after ending another in same vicinity all the ai just cleared from. If it happens endlessly idk I haven't had that issue.

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19 hours ago, DLM3 said:

The issue is that this is also a game. And it should be up to the player to choose how they want to play instead of being forced to see other units doing all the work for them. My experience may be limited, one night compared to your months of testing, but I have had quite a few callouts now (playing Vanilla and forcing them) and I have seen you guys streaming last night, easily 2/3 of the pursuits can be resolved by the other units alone without your intervention. That's where you are crossing the fine line as a game designer (yes you're doing game design!), while it looks cool the first few times you can't have the game play for the player. Imagine if I launch Dragon Age or Mass Effect and my party deals with the enemies while I sit back and watch... You are the player, you're still at the center of the action, this is not RL.

Let me first start off by saying that I agree that since measures in LCPDFR were taken to adjust how many units can be involved in a chase, this will likely be a feature that returns in LSPDFR. That being said;

That's like suggesting that Dragon Age or Mass Effect should be designed the way you want and nobody else's way. Pardon the old adage, but the world (including game design) does not revolve around you. G17 has their own vision of what LSPDFR is supposed to be, and while it is certainly molded by the players, suggesting that your way is the only way is rather brash, in my opinion. While LSPDFR is not intended to be a simulator (since there are no reports to fill out, or morning briefings to attend, as a couple of examples), it is intended to be more than a mod that changes your character model and vehicle. Sam and LMS can tell you better than anybody what the mod is "supposed to be", but it's been described in the past as a mod that puts you in the position of a police officer working the streets of Los Santos, which is unarguably a replication of Los Angeles, California and the surrounding area. You are a patrolman, you're not the chief of police, sitting behind a desk filling out reports or a neatly dressed female officer controlling radio dispatch. As such, you are not in charge of every little thing.

We're well aware that video games are not real life. But this mod is intended to have touches of authenticity in it. And an authentic experience with police backup is that it may be available in large abundance in the world's police chase capital, the state of California. Other times it may not be, if other units are tied up on more important calls and all news choppers are on other pursuits. But that scenario rarely exists. An average police pursuit lasts about 3 minutes on average, largely due to driver error resulting in a crash, or the suspect bailing out of the vehicle or giving up. Pursuits that last longer than that are understandably going to attract a lot more attention.

This chase happened three weeks ago:
 



This one happened a few months ago:
 



And I shouldn't have to remind you about the San Bernardino shootings that happened recently:
 


See the pattern? You're going to have the area completely canvased in police vehicles and sometimes multiple helicopters (LAPD and news choppers) within a matter of minutes if the call is deemed serious. And as soon as a suspect comes to a slow down or stop, the police are immediately all over the fleeing suspects. It is noteworthy that the police in California keep their distance from the car during most chases due to their non-aggressive pursuit policy, but because Rockstar coded the police AI to be aggressive against the player, there most likely isn't a whole lot that can be done about them aggressively chasing enemy AI as well.

 

19 hours ago, DLM3 said:

The thing is —and I am certainly not alone— that I want to keep my interactions with the AI including police forces at a minimum because the AI is stupid. I am not blaming you and it's even not that the AI itself is dumb but we are (ab)using it in a way it was not intended to so obviously it doesn't behave the best way.


Unfortunately, the AI's behavior is an element of the game we can only manipulate so much, because it's something Rockstar developed, as stated above. What I can say is that generally speaking, a good driver in this game is going to be at the front of the pack, and can often end a chase before more than one or two units join, often by a PIT maneuver or pinning the fleeing vehicle against something like a wall or guard rail. As you said yourself, I've been testing this game for months, and having 10 police cars is not common, especially if I don't call any of them. By default, you generally get one unit in pursuit which often falls behind at the start of a call. There are occasions where you will end up joining an active pursuit, but I've only experienced that a hand full of times out of all the time I've spent.

And again, insinuating that the AI backup is not intended to behave a certain way is to presume that G17 is designing the game with you specifically in mind.

 

19 hours ago, DLM3 said:

So I know I sound like complaining but a few months ago when we were told that we would be able to customize our backup I didn't have their outfit in mind (that's a cool addition, don't get me wrong but that doesn't help on the field which badge my units show up :smile: ) and yes please add this option to the XML file. For instance I was also expecting to be able to say for certain that a bike unit would show up if I wanted my backup to be a bike. I know that I can remove police4 from the State vehicles in the XML (that's what I did) but that also means that I will never see a State police car... That's the kind of full customization of backups that I was expecting.


As far as I've seen, G17 has not promised anything that they didn't deliver. The backup customization announcement was likely ambiguous in its description for a reason. As implemented, it was intended to have the right kind of units responding to the right area. While still a work in progress (as the entire mod itself is), the testing team was satisfied with the adjustments as far as I could tell.

I'll end this reply by saying the same thing I did when I started it: Since measures in LCPDFR were taken to adjust how many units can be involved in a chase (the default cap was 5, if I remember correctly), this will likely be a feature that returns in LSPDFR. I've been working closely with G17 since 2012, before version .95 of LCPDFR went public (I started with version .91), and even back then the mod had a high level of notoriety at the time. However, said feature was not implemented until after .95 was released. It was not considered high on the priority list compared to things like getting a better prisoner transport system, taming the bad AI driving, implementing new callouts, redesigning handcuffing, changing the traffic stop interaction process, adding in a police station to go on duty, etc.

So, I'd like to ask you to please have patience, spend some more time with the mod, and provided that time can be made for it, you'll most likely see this in a future update. :)

Happy hunting.

Edited by unr3al

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Right now is perfect example. Downtown near the station I am seeing patrols of ai pretty much saturating the area. To me normal. It's downtown and the ai is going around as normal so in areas like this you may get sat patrol. Now I go out to mo man's land and back up seems like it'll never get there. This was also case in previous versions. I think allot people didn't suit out at downtown or certain stations much and since the release of 0.3 since it was show cased at downtown more are going there to start game taking calls right away. Sitting here watching the ai to me is normal and has dame reaction it always did. If I go watch activity farther north away it seems same as before and feels like back up takes bit to get to you. I think it's normal and most haven't noticed it much before as they didn't suit out downtown or a couple  other stations where ai saturates naturally. Before 0.3 allot I think drove quickly and took calls going away from those areas but now are actually getting to see close calls in the immediate vicinity and ai crimes with the normal saturation. Just what I think. To me it's all normal.  I like it though. I wish they'd be like this when I'm by stab city alone lol. The miss daisy thing earlier was joke though I couldn't resist ;)

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Do you use a custom popcycle mod that adds cops to traffic? That can be a big part of how many ambient units join in a chase, and considering LSPDFR is designed mostly for an unmodified game (so they don't have to try to deal with all the various ways changes to the game can mess things up; their apparent plans for supporting things from the RDE mod is kind of surprising), its really could be an unintended effect of 3rd-party changes.

Now, it's not to say that things currently happening with the mod aren't at fault. I don't know if certain callouts are set up to have multiple units spawn immediately, or if persistence issues are causing far more units to be on the map than intended. I've personally noticed the latter a lot.

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32 minutes ago, The Loot said:

I don't know if certain callouts are set up to have multiple units spawn immediately, or if persistence issues are causing far more units to be on the map than intended. I've personally noticed the latter a lot.

Armed suspect pursuits always have a small convoy after them. It's generally a helicopter and a few ground units. I always call in NOOSE immediately because the local cops just get shot to hell in their cruisers because they drive so close.

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14 hours ago, Azteco said:

Right now is perfect example. Downtown near the station I am seeing patrols of ai pretty much saturating the area. To me normal. It's downtown and the ai is going around as normal so in areas like this you may get sat patrol. Now I go out to mo man's land and back up seems like it'll never get there. This was also case in previous versions. I think allot people didn't suit out at downtown or certain stations much and since the release of 0.3 since it was show cased at downtown more are going there to start game taking calls right away. Sitting here watching the ai to me is normal and has dame reaction it always did. If I go watch activity farther north away it seems same as before and feels like back up takes bit to get to you. I think it's normal and most haven't noticed it much before as they didn't suit out downtown or a couple  other stations where ai saturates naturally. Before 0.3 allot I think drove quickly and took calls going away from those areas but now are actually getting to see close calls in the immediate vicinity and ai crimes with the normal saturation. Just what I think. To me it's all normal.  I like it though. I wish they'd be like this when I'm by stab city alone lol. The miss daisy thing earlier was joke though I couldn't resist ;)

It's actually not just Downtown but all the city. Wherever you are the AI will respond too close and swarm the suspects. I cannot speak of the county as I have never been too keen patrolling there but in Los Santos I can definitely tell that the difference is huge.

 

unr3al I am not going to post a long answer as I am done with you, till you won't understand that this is a video game, as much as a game try to be a sim, discussing with you is pointless. You can post all the videos of police swarms that you want, you cannot bring the RL argument into a videogame, you still don't get the point: in terms of gameplay you cannot have a game play and resolve situations for the player. This is something that you will never see in any game. This is called player input, if your only input is only to press Y to accept a callout and then sit back while the other units will take care of 2/3 of the situations by themselves, where is the fun? I don't need to play 3 months to spot an obvious issue, that's something I am used to in my line of work, making a judgement with little time and I am pretty good at it.

Play any game that comes with a party controlled by the AI (any decent game, there are obviously some crappy games with a lousy AI having that kind of problems) and the AI will never be able to win without the player. This is nothing about being the hero but about being in control, that "player input" I was talking about. Read any game design theory book...

I will just leave that link, give it some thought. A couple of months ago The Old Republic had a new expansion that came with an overhaul of the companion system that actually rendered them way overpowered, you had plenty of videos on YouTube of people showing how their companion would deal with any pack of mobs up to dealing with champions boss fights and still survive while the player would just sit back and watch. It took a couple of weeks for the nerf bat to come and here's what the developpers had to say:

Some of you will certainly ask, why the need to nerf Companions? (...) What we saw in those instances is that Companions, simply put, were just way too good. Their healing and damage output could be greater than that of a very skilled player with a fully maximized character.

(...) Companions, from a combat perspective, should complement and provide support to your character, not overshadow them. However, in looking at how strong Companions are, we may have gone a bit too far in that direction. Simply put, while playing through much of the game, there are a lot of situations in regular combat where it is practically impossible for you to be killed if you have a healing Companion. Although this can be fun for a time, this wasn’t our goal. Companions should be strong, they should fill any role you need, but they should not make your actual gameplay be overshadowed by how strong they are.

This is the same exact situation with swarms of police units spawning on top of the suspects and taking any challenge out, especially coupled with the fact of how easily suspects now surrender. There is no need to play 3 months to see this issue.

Edited by DLM3
Typos

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Like Kilyin i am with DLM3 too.

The thing is that the backup not should be toned down by default, it just would be cool to give the player the option to customize it the way he likes it^^

Before in 0.2b we had 100% control over the backup. Not anymore. And we are the player in this game. Nearly every mod creator gives you essential options via an .ini.

For example: If want i can set in Albo´s Traffic Policer the drunk driver event to zero. Then i decide to not use Breathalyzer. So there i am....in my little world people who drink and drive are non existent. Because i want it so in this case. Its my decision.

And now if i want to catch this evil dude in a pursuit only by myself to give me a challenge, then it is so. Its my decision. In my litle world in my sinlge player game where nobody else get hurt by my changes in my .ini or backup.xml or whatever^^ Maybe its unrealistic, so what. Its unrealistic that there are no drunken drivers, but i am able to do this. And thats great.

 

This is no blame! No salt!^^ Just a suggestion and  a wish i think several players of LSPDFR have for 0.3.

Really thank you for LSPDFR.... a great and the main thing in my gaming atm. So please be with the players who made this so big :)

 

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On 1/18/2016 at 5:43 PM, DLM3 said:

t game, there are obviously some crappy games with a lousy AI having that kind of problems) and the AI will never be able to win without the player. This is nothing about being the hero but about being in control, that "player input" I was talking about. Read any game design theory book...

Counter Strike, Team Fortress, Unreal Tournament, Quake, Doom, Tom Clany's Rainbow Six, Operation Flashpoint... shall I go on? I don't hear about a whole lot of complaining if you end up dying or falling behind and your team with AI on it manages to pull out victories for you. Those are all excellent, award winning gmaes with cult followings. The same goes for any MMO that allows you to have AI companions that you can either micro manage or be self sufficient.

 

On 1/18/2016 at 5:43 PM, DLM3 said:

you won't understand that this is a video game, as much as a game try to be a sim, discussing with you is pointless. You can post all the videos of police swarms that you want, you cannot bring the RL argument into a videogame

My chief problem with you is that you're sitting here telling me what a video game should be. That's not up to you to decide, that's up to the developers. There are borderline simulator games such as ARMA or Operation Flashpoint, there are arcade style games such as Unreal Tournament or Quake, and there are some that meet part way in the middle. Because LSPDFR deals with the activities of an existing profession (no, there aren't any openings as a space mercenary yet), a goal of the development team is to bring that experience to people who don't join the force. I've explained to you, politely, for that matter, that based on the fact that LCPDFR eventually had a .ini file with a field you could edit for maximum number of backup units per chase, LSPDFR will likely have it too, but at a time frame that has yet to be determined. That should really be the end of it now that you've made your issue known. This thread should not be about game design theory, as you've now made it.

Edited by unr3al

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