Having lived in the south my whole life, I've seen this flag on swimsuits, bumper stickers, everywhere. It was never a symbol of racism, it has always been shown by us as a symbol of southern pride. Simply we are proud to live in the south. I have never owned the CSA flag, but I see it everywhere in North Carolina, and no one ever had a problem with it. Now, people are claiming it's racist. The flag was never a symbol of hate, like the Nazi Swastika, but more of a prideful symbol. I understand stores are banning it because they need to appeal to society to keep customers, but I can't believe it's a big deal in the first place, I never heard anyone complain about the flag before recently. I am very upset about what is going on with this now, because all my life it was never a sign of hate or anything, it just meant someone was a proud southerner - I compare it to someone having merchandise about the Republic of Texas - not a big deal, they're proud of their origin.

Again, nobody is saying that people who fly the Confederate flag are racist. I don't know where people are getting this idea, I think they are just upset that they are being reminded about what that flag really stands for. I realize that most people that have Confederate flags are probably not racist and don't support slavery. The issue that is being brought up is the history behind that flag and what it stood for.

Actually as BroCop stated all the states that were members of the Confederacy supported slavery and were fighting to keep it. Now that doesn't mean that everyone in the CSA was racist and supported slavery but I'm willing to bet the majority did. So using your analogy with the Nazi Party does that mean since not all Germans that served in the German military during WWII were racists or hated Jews that flying the Nazi flag would be viewed the same as flying the Confederate flag?

You can continue to try and make arguments about how not every person from the South was racist or supported slavery but at the end of the day that is irrelevant to the debate because the whole reason the Confederacy existed was to preserve the institution of slavery and racism. That is what the government of the Confederacy wanted to to and that was their goal. And the issue people are bringing up now is not that private citizens want to fly the Confederate flag, but that the Confederate flag flies on government grounds and that our society seems to want to ignore history.

Well to me, it doesn't represent racism. Many millions of people believe that. That's why many people still fly it. Nobody had a problem with it, and slavery was not what people thought of when they saw it. But now the media is putting that spin on it. 

I would be fine flying the flag of the Luftwaffe or the Wehrmacht, but they all have the swastika on it somewhere. The people who were members of the Nazi party were racist. You had to be. If you flew that flag you were letting the world know that you agreed with the racist ideals. Just because you flew the confederate flag, did not mean you were racist or wanted slavery. 

 

And no that's not the extent of the issue, otherwise I wouldn't have created this topic. The issue is that this flag is being labeled as racist and a flag of hate. That is forcing games to be banned. Books to be removed from shelves. 

 

Some people can choose to believe it's a flag of hate, and other don't agree with that. This was a non-issue before, but now it's suddenly become a major debate. 

 

Okay seriously is this a joke, not only did slavery kill thousands, where in that comment did I mention slavery? You don't like what Hitler did in the holocaust, but what the south did is all find and dandy, typical hypocrite.  

I didn't say I was okay with slavery, did I?

The flag can represent whatever you want it to represent for you. Just like the Swastika represents something different to other people (it was used as a symbol of good fortune by Buddhism and Hinduism long before Hitler used it). I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat myself but yes, it is a flag of racism and hate. It was used by an army that fought to keep slavery and racism alive, if that doesn't make it a flag of racism and hate I don't know what will. That is not "forcing" games and books to be banned. I haven't heard of any books being pulled off shelves and games aren't being "banned", companies are just choosing not to sell them anymore. That is the decision of the company, nobody is forcing them to do that. When this whole issue started people wanted the Confederate flag to be taken down from in front of the SC capitol building, I didn't hear anyone start demanding that Amazon and Walmart stop selling Confederate merchandise.

Just because it wasn't an issue in the past doesn't mean it can never be brought up as an issue. You even said in one of your posts that slavery was not an issue back when the Romans were doing it and it wasn't an issue in Britain was bringing slaves to America in the 1600s and 1700s. Does that mean that slavery should have never been brought up as an issue? It wasn't an issue before right?

I don't understand why you are taking this so personally. Nobody is saying that people who choose to fly the Confederate flag are racist, they are just trying to remind people of the history behind that flag and why it shouldn't be flown on government grounds.

 

The flag can represent whatever you want it to represent for you. Just like the Swastika represents something different to other people (it was used as a symbol of good fortune by Buddhism and Hinduism long before Hitler used it). I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat myself but yes, it is a flag of racism and hate. It was used by an army that fought to keep slavery and racism alive, if that doesn't make it a flag of racism and hate I don't know what will. That is not "forcing" games and books to be banned. I haven't heard of any books being pulled off shelves and games aren't being "banned", companies are just choosing not to sell them anymore. That is the decision of the company, nobody is forcing them to do that. When this whole issue started people wanted the Confederate flag to be taken down from in front of the SC capitol building, I didn't hear anyone start demanding that Amazon and Walmart stop selling Confederate merchandise.

Just because it wasn't an issue in the past doesn't mean it can never be brought up as an issue. You even said in one of your posts that slavery was not an issue back when the Romans were doing it and it wasn't an issue in Britain was bringing slaves to America in the 1600s and 1700s. Does that mean that slavery should have never been brought up as an issue? It wasn't an issue before right?

I don't understand why you are taking this so personally. Nobody is saying that people who choose to fly the Confederate flag are racist, they are just trying to remind people of the history behind that flag and why it shouldn't be flown on government grounds.

 

The question should be why does about half the country take it personally. It's not racist to them. It can be racist to you and others, but to other it isn't. 

Apple very explicitly stated they banned civil war games but have since reinstated select few. People are calling for books to pulled from shelves, never said they have been. 

 

The issue is not just with a  South Carolina flag. Look at the news. It was just in a supreme court case. The multiple flags across the south. I already said I wouldn't bring this up if it was just because of the one flag, but it's clearly not. 

And now you're twisting my words about slavery in the Roman times. I was using that as an example to explain the mentality and social institution of slavery. 

The question should be why does about half the country take it personally. It's not racist to them. It can be racist to you and others, but to other it isn't. 

Apple very explicitly stated they banned civil war games but have since reinstated select few. People are calling for books to pulled from shelves, never said they have been. 

 

The issue is not just with a  South Carolina flag. Look at the news. It was just in a supreme court case. The multiple flags across the south. I already said I wouldn't bring this up if it was just because of the one flag, but it's clearly not. 

And now you're twisting my words about slavery in the Roman times. I was using that as an example to explain the mentality and social institution of slavery. 

No one is taking it personally. They are just tired of seeing people fly the Confederate flag when that flag was originally used by an army that fought to keep slavery. If it means something different to you then cool, but that doesn't change the history behind the flag.

Again, Apple can do whatever it wants. I couldn't give two shits if they sell civil war games or not. Actually what you said was "That is forcing games to be banned. Books to be removed from shelves." so when I read that I read it as they are forcing games to be banned and books to be removed from shelves. Haven't heard anyone calling for books to be pulled from shelves, but again, that is up to the business. We have a free market and if those stores decide to pull certain products then they have the right to do so just like if they want to continue selling those products they have the right to do so.

I was actually not aware of the Supreme Court case, but it isn't something that just popped up. They started hearing the case several months ago so this isn't just a new issue that popped up suddenly as you said earlier. People have had an issue with this for awhile and for whatever reason the media decided to focus on this story now. Who knows how the media picks stories. For the past year it has been nothing but "police brutality", I guess they got tired of that.

I didn't twist any words. I was using the exact same example you gave. During Roman times slavery was viewed as acceptable just like flying a Confederate flag has been viewed as acceptable for the past 100+ years. You said that flying the Confederate flag "was never an issue before". Well as we both just stated neither was slavery at one time. Does that mean that back in the 1800s when we were abolishing slavery we should have been like "well slavery has never been an issue before so why even bring it up"?

Just want to throw in that I'm black and this picture offends me much more...

Than this picture...

No one is taking it personally. They are just tired of seeing people fly the Confederate flag when that flag was originally used by an army that fought to keep slavery. If it means something different to you then cool, but that doesn't change the history behind the flag.

Again, Apple can do whatever it wants. I couldn't give two shits if they sell civil war games or not. Actually what you said was "That is forcing games to be banned. Books to be removed from shelves." so when I read that I read it as they are forcing games to be banned and books to be removed from shelves. Haven't heard anyone calling for books to be pulled from shelves, but again, that is up to the business. We have a free market and if those stores decide to pull certain products then they have the right to do so just like if they want to continue selling those products they have the right to do so.

I was actually not aware of the Supreme Court case, but it isn't something that just popped up. They started hearing the case several months ago so this isn't just a new issue that popped up suddenly as you said earlier. People have had an issue with this for awhile and for whatever reason the media decided to focus on this story now. Who knows how the media picks stories. For the past year it has been nothing but "police brutality", I guess they got tired of that.

I didn't twist any words. I was using the exact same example you gave. During Roman times slavery was viewed as acceptable just like flying a Confederate flag has been viewed as acceptable for the past 100+ years. You said that flying the Confederate flag "was never an issue before". Well as we both just stated neither was slavery at one time. Does that mean that back in the 1800s when we were abolishing slavery we should have been like "well slavery has never been an issue before so why even bring it up"?

I'm talking about the supporters for the flag. They're taking it personally. That why people are protesting to keep the flags. Not just me, many, many people. Including politicians and governors.

 

I couldn't care any less either if a company decided to randomly stop selling products that remind people of the Civil War and the Confederacy. What this whole thread was about was the immediate impact that the shooting had. According to their logic, we should also suppress US flags and change our flag. The KKK would fly US flags and march with US flags, and those members are the same that would lynch minorities and bomb churches and claim they did it for "America". 

 

And yes. The states that depended on agriculture as well as the numerous countries that were agriculturally dependent, did view it as that. It was, to them, a perfect social institution that wasn't implemented primarily due to racism. 

Just want to throw in that I'm black and this picture offends me much more...

Than this picture...

Now, 1 year ago, if you were driving down the road and somebody had a vanity plate of that flag on the front of their car, would you honestly assume that they were racist? If you do, that's fine. Some people did always associate racism with that, some didn't. 

Now, 1 year ago, if you were driving down the road and somebody had a vanity plate of that flag on the front of their car, would you honestly assume that they were racist? If you do, that's fine. Some people did always associate racism with that, some didn't. 

No, I would not assume that they were racist. I don't assume that anyone is racist unless they make it blatant. Waving a flag doesn't make anything blatant. Calling me a nigger makes it blatant. This is why I don't have any personal issues with the flag. To me, it's just a flag. I'd personally much rather wave an American flag, but it doesn't offend me.  

Just want to throw in that I'm black and this picture offends me much more...

Than this picture...

I think most people would agree with that statement. I'm not here to say that all black people hate the Confederate flag, I'm just here because the topic was that the CSA and the Confederate flag are being "improperly portrayed" which I don't think is true.

I'm talking about the supporters for the flag. They're taking it personally. That why people are protesting to keep the flags. Not just me, many, many people. Including politicians and governors.

 

I couldn't care any less either if a company decided to randomly stop selling products that remind people of the Civil War and the Confederacy. What this whole thread was about was the immediate impact that the shooting had. According to their logic, we should also suppress US flags and change our flag. The KKK would fly US flags and march with US flags, and those members are the same that would lynch minorities and bomb churches and claim they did it for "America". 

 

And yes. The states that depended on agriculture as well as the numerous countries that were agriculturally dependent, did view it as that. It was, to them, a perfect social institution that wasn't implemented primarily due to racism. 

Again, I don't know why anyone would take this personally. Nobody is calling supporters of the flag racist and nobody is saying that you shouldn't be able to fly the Confederate flag as a private citizen.

You made it seem like you cared that products were getting pulled. Also I thought this thread was about how the CSA and Confederate flag are being portrayed incorrectly? The difference between the KKK flying the US flag and state governments flying the Confederate flag is that the KKK is a private group who say they do it for the white race and America but the US government and the majority of the US population do not support them. A state government flying a flag of a country that broke off from the US so they could continue to keep slaves is something completely different.

It was for economic reasons but racism played a huge part in it. If it wasn't about race then why did they bring people all the way across the Atlantic Ocean to be slaves? Wouldn't it have been cheaper to just enslave other white people or Native Americans? If you think race wasn't the primary reason for black slaves in America then you are completely ignoring history. Look at the things that were written and said about African Americans, there was a hatred for black people, they were viewed as inferior to the white man (and yes before you say it again, I know that there were racists in the North as well). And you didn't answer my question. Does that mean that back in the 1800s when we were abolishing slavery we should have been like "well slavery has never been an issue before so why even bring it up"?

While I don't have an issue with people displaying the Confederate flag on their own property, I don't think it should be displayed on public property, like southern state capitols. I understand the historical significance, but for a state to display the flag of a rebellious nation that sought to break apart the union we all live in is wrong. 

 

In regards to the things posted about Nazi Germany on the previous page... I think there are a few problems. I would hardly call Nazi Party membership an entirely voluntary affair. While many people did actively decide to join the party, many didn't really have much of a choice in the matter. I'd imagine things would be a bit difficult for you if you were a member of a party the Nazis didn't like, and you'd have to join or ultimately suffer consequences. I think it's fair to say that many Germans joined and supported the Nazis without understanding how self-destructive this would be for Germany, Europe, and their peoples. 

That being said, I think some parallels can be drawn to the pre-war South. The vast majority of southerners were not slaveholders. In fact, it's become well understood that slavery negatively impacted the average, poor, white farmer and just benefitted the aristocracy. Yet, people then rose to defend the rebellion and the institution it backed. And still today, people today celebrate a romanticized adaptation of a traitorous nation that defended an institution that likely helped keep their ancestors in a lower place in southern society. Germans today don't look back on 1933-1945 as some kind of profound era that they should take pride in. Yet so many people try to pull some positive feelings out of 1861-1865 when it's really not true. 

Also, don't try to suggest that the Wehrmacht was a glowing force for the German nation while the SS was the only evil force. The "Clean Wehrmacht" myth has been thoroughly debunked

Edited July 2, 201510 yr by SIR_Sergeant

In regards to the things posted about Nazi Germany on the previous page... I think there are a few problems. I would hardly call Nazi Party membership an entirely voluntary affair. While many people did actively decide to join the party, many didn't really have much of a choice in the matter. I'd imagine things would be a bit difficult for you if you were a member of a party the Nazis didn't like, and you'd have to join or ultimately suffer consequences. I think it's fair to say that many Germans joined and supported the Nazis without understanding how self-destructive this would be for Germany, Europe, and their peoples. 

That being said, I think some parallels can be drawn to the pre-war South. The vast majority of southerners were not slaveholders. In fact, it's become well understood that slavery negatively impacted the average, poor, white farmer and just benefitted the aristocracy. Yet, people then rose to defend the rebellion and the institution it backed. And still today, people today celebrate a romanticized adaptation of a traitorous nation that defended an institution that likely helped keep their ancestors in a lower place in southern society. Germans today don't look back on 1933-1945 as some kind of profound era that they should take pride in. Yet so many people try to pull some positive feelings out of 1861-1865 when it's really not true. 

Also, don't try to suggest that the Wehrmacht was a glowing force for the German nation while the SS was the only evil force. The "Clean Wehrmacht" myth has been thoroughly debunked

Very well put. The difference between people who supported the Confederacy and people who supported the Nazis was the people who supported the Confederacy knew exactly what they were supporting and knew they wanted to keep slavery; not everyone who supported the Nazis knew what kind of atrocities the Nazis were committing.