Interesting tidbt; 

The active military is highly involved in situations outside of a military installation. I routinely help LEOs from police departments and federal agencies in their tasks. I restrain, detain, issue orders/citations to US and even foreign citizens. However the difference being that I'm not acting as a member of the US military, I'm acting as an LEO from whomever I'm helping. Same thing when there are doctors, medics, firefighters, etc actively helping in society. That's the difference. There are almost never "combat groups" deployed in the US to help.The only military who are deployed in the US to help are service oriented like what I just listed.

 

You're technically not supposed to though while on actual active duty, I mean like if you witness a robbery or an assault and detain sure, it's generally considered a citizen right to detain someone until law enforcement arrive of course, but if law enforcement are already doing something they can't (shouldn't) actually request nor accept any active duty servicemen assistance in say, hunting for someone or helping search people and so on.  Soldiers (and their command structure) have been reprimanded before for this, such as for sending military police out to help search for a suspect.

You're technically not supposed to though while on actual active duty, I mean like if you witness a robbery or an assault and detain sure, it's generally considered a citizen right to detain someone until law enforcement arrive of course, but if law enforcement are already doing something they can't (shouldn't) actually request nor accept any active duty servicemen assistance in say, hunting for someone or helping search people and so on.  Soldiers (and their command structure) have been reprimanded before for this, such as for sending military police out to help search for a suspect.

Nope. It's done quite a lot. I had a few guys that were training for a working dog handler (military version of K-9), and they routinely work with PD's and federal LEAs. The this is, we're partnered with a civilian/federal LEA. Which means anything we do, we're doing through them, not as military. I myself worked along with the Border Patrol/CBP in my training. It's done a lot of more through training then anything else. The main thing is that we're not doing any of that as military personnel, even though we wear the uniform. I'm a lowly pleb in a giant chess game, so I don't have the regs and policies on what it explicitly states (I leave it to those who don't work, AKA officers  ) But it's only done in communities that house a military base. So we wouldn't be going to the ass-crack of South Dakota. That's why we do it A LOT in training. The training is in San Antonio, TX which is like less that 30 min from the border, hence the reason we work very closely with CBP. 

 

Funny story,

 

Part of the training takes place on the air base, but is nothing but like 5 miles off rough fields and hills. Well my friend who went through like 2 years ago, said when they were doing their urban combat drills, 7 illegal aliens darted across the field. He said all 50 trainees took off after them and and restrained them. He said their TI didn't care about them and just made sure they put the handcuffs on properly. 

 

 

I'm claiming that enforcing laws and performing criminal investigations is literally what "law enforcement tasks" are. Police do many things which are not law enforcement. The military cannot issue orders to civilians in the US off of a military installation, unless the President has invoked the Insurrection Act or in a very few other cases explicitly given by US law. Any member of the US military who attempts to force a civilian to do something off a military post (i.e. acting as law enforcement) faces court-martial. Are you claiming that "law enforcement task" is "whatever police do"? Because that's a fairly useless definition of the term in a conversation about roles of various parts of the government.

 

1. Law enforcement broadly refers to any system by which some members of society act in an organized manner to enforce the law by discovering, deterring, rehabilitating or punishing persons who violate the rules and norms governing that society.

    

   A SWAT member is a LEO. Why would they get taught things that arent there tasks? Also that is why they arent just called Law enforcement, they are Police, Swat - Special Weapons And Tactics, They control situations that normal patrol officers cant. Defusing a bomb to save lives is a law enforcement task.

   Deterring - Prevent the occurrence of ___

   Defusing a bomb is preventing innocent lives to fall.

   Rehabilitate - restore (someone) to health or normal life by physical or mental means.

   Say a bomb was at a work building, defusing it would restore normal health and life by physical means.

• Law enforcement broadly refers to any system by which some members of society act in an organized manner to enforce the law by discovering, deterring, rehabilitating or punishing persons who violate the rules and norms governing that society.

   

  A SWAT member is a LEO. Why would they get taught things that arent there tasks? Also that is why they arent just called Law enforcement, they are Police, Swat - Special Weapons And Tactics, They control situations that normal patrol officers cant. Defusing a bomb to save lives is a law enforcement task.

  Deterring - Prevent the occurrence of ___

  Defusing a bomb is preventing innocent lives to fall.

  Rehabilitate - restore (someone) to health or normal life by physical or mental means.

  Say a bomb was at a work building, defusing it would restore normal health and life by physical means.

So you've gone from "law enforcement is enforcing the law" (correct) to "somehow, something that has nothing to do with enforcing the law is law enforcement because it's preventing the loss of innocent lives, and because police sometimes do it (even though it's not always police doing it)"? Is firefighting law enforcement? Heavy rescue (I mean, why would the NYPD train ESU people in something which isn't their job? Because they train them in heavy rescue, clearly it's not just part of their job, but a law enforcement task, right?) Hell, cops are trained in basic first-responder medical tasks; is that law enforcement, then? Are EMTs then performing a law enforcement task when providing medical care? Simple question: do you define all tasks that any police officers are trained to do as part of their jobs as law enforcement tasks? If so, your definition of "law enforcement task" is a) dead wrong according to standard usage (as things cops do that are not enforcing the law fall under your definition but not the standard one, and b) utterly useless in a discussion which is about when the military can perform law enforcement tasks, which requires distinguishing between "what police do" and "law enforcement".

So you've gone from "law enforcement is enforcing the law" (correct) to "somehow, something that has nothing to do with enforcing the law is law enforcement because it's preventing the loss of innocent lives, and because police sometimes do it (even though it's not always police doing it)"? Is firefighting law enforcement? Heavy rescue (I mean, why would the NYPD train ESU people in something which isn't their job? Because they train them in heavy rescue, clearly it's not just part of their job, but a law enforcement task, right?) Hell, cops are trained in basic first-responder medical tasks; is that law enforcement, then? Are EMTs then performing a law enforcement task when providing medical care? Simple question: do you define all tasks that any police officers are trained to do as part of their jobs as law enforcement tasks? If so, your definition of "law enforcement task" is a) dead wrong according to standard usage (as things cops do that are not enforcing the law fall under your definition but not the standard one, and b) utterly useless in a discussion which is about when the military can perform law enforcement tasks, which requires distinguishing between "what police do" and "law enforcement".

I literally gave you the definition of law enforcement and broke it down.

Also, do you realize that law enforcement is NOT all police do? I hope you do. If so I dont know why we are having this argument.

I literally gave you the definition of law enforcement and broke it down.

And then completely misinterpreted your own definition. You went from "deterring lawbreaking" to "preventing the deaths of innocents". If you bother to read your own definition, it refers to deterring *crime* and rehabilitating *criminals*. Bomb defusal is not deterring crime, nor is it rehabilitating criminals. It is saving the lives of people who are not criminals. If you seriously read "discovering, deterring, rehabilitating or punishing persons who violate the rules and norms governing that society" to mean "saving the lives of people who are breaking no law", you frankly need to step back and look over the sentence again. Hint: "discovering, deterring, rehabilitating or punishing" takes "persons who violate..." as a direct object for each of "discovering", "deterring", "rehabilitating", and "punishing". The full expansion is "discovering persons who violate the rules and norms governing that society, deterring persons who violate the rules and norms governing that society, rehabilitating persons who violate the rules and norms governing that society, or punishing persons who violate the rules and norms governing that society". You instead act as though "rehabilitating" means "saving any lives of anyone", which is simply not how that sentence works.

I do realize law enforcement is not all police do. That's what I've been trying to say. I'm not sure you do, because you have been saying essentially "police do it, so it's law enforcement".

Well I guess we can say that this debate has gone far off course, LOL.

In a nutshell, law enforcement saves lives, defusing bombs saves lives. Some swat agencies are taught to defuses bombs, swat agencies are law enforcement. This has gone too far, and I guess we are both right in some ways and we are both wrong in some ways. Whether or not bomb defusal is an act of law enforcement, law enforcement does that which is what I was trying to get at. Either way this argument started from an inside joke that meant nothing, I didnt say anything about law enforcement in my statement about bomb defusal, as it was a joke - CriminalKillaz (Spike Scarlatti) defuses bombs. So yeah...Lets end this.

I missed any joke, but I heartily agree it's gone too far and time to end it. Sorry.

-Nevermind-

Edited August 18, 201411 yr by iiKonrad

In a nutshell, law enforcement saves lives, defusing bombs saves lives. Some swat agencies are taught to defuses bombs, swat agencies are law enforcement. This has gone too far, and I guess we are both right in some ways and we are both wrong in some ways. Whether or not bomb defusal is an act of law enforcement, law enforcement does that which is what I was trying to get at. Either way this argument started from an inside joke that meant nothing, I didnt say anything about law enforcement in my statement about bomb defusal, as it was a joke - CriminalKillaz (Spike Scarlatti) defuses bombs. So yeah...Lets end this.

If only Spike was able to defuse that mine...

 

Anyways, I agree. This debate has gone a bit too far, and it isn't even on topic.

If only Spike was able to defuse that mine...

 

Anyways, I agree. This debate has gone a bit too far, and it isn't even on topic.

Omg that mine.

 

Rip Lou. :C

The military has just been called into Furgeson. I'll be part of the active duty attache that'll be out of the STL Airport coordinating for assets in play in use by the national guard and supporting active elements. Apparently, the concept is to have anyone else, besides the police handling the situation.

The military has just been called into Furgeson. I'll be part of the active duty attache that'll be out of the STL Airport coordinating for assets in play in use by the national guard and supporting active elements. Apparently, the concept is to have anyone else, besides the police handling the situation.

Good luck, stay safe.

Good luck, stay safe.

 

I'll just be at the airport, but thanks mate. Hopefully, I can head back home as quickly as possible.

The military has just been called into Furgeson. I'll be part of the active duty attache that'll be out of the STL Airport coordinating for assets in play in use by the national guard and supporting active elements. Apparently, the concept is to have anyone else, besides the police handling the situation.

You're airborne? Stay safe, man. 

Interesting tidbt; 

The active military is highly involved in situations outside of a military installation. I routinely help LEOs from police departments and federal agencies in their tasks. I restrain, detain, issue orders/citations to US and even foreign citizens. However the difference being that I'm not acting as a member of the US military, I'm acting as an LEO from whomever I'm helping. Same thing when there are doctors, medics, firefighters, etc actively helping in society. That's the difference. There are almost never "combat groups" deployed in the US to help.The only military who are deployed in the US to help are service oriented like what I just listed.

 

 

Nope. It's done quite a lot. I had a few guys that were training for a working dog handler (military version of K-9), and they routinely work with PD's and federal LEAs. The this is, we're partnered with a civilian/federal LEA. Which means anything we do, we're doing through them, not as military. I myself worked along with the Border Patrol/CBP in my training. It's done a lot of more through training then anything else. The main thing is that we're not doing any of that as military personnel, even though we wear the uniform. I'm a lowly pleb in a giant chess game, so I don't have the regs and policies on what it explicitly states (I leave it to those who don't work, AKA officers  ) But it's only done in communities that house a military base. So we wouldn't be going to the ass-crack of South Dakota. That's why we do it A LOT in training. The training is in San Antonio, TX which is like less that 30 min from the border, hence the reason we work very closely with CBP. 

I highly doubt you or anyone you work with goes out and assists in the daily duties of a local or state police officer. That is a direct violation of Title 10 of the United States code.

 

10 U.S.C. § 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel

 

The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment of facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit the direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.

I'll just be at the airport, but thanks mate. Hopefully, I can head back home as quickly as possible.

Airborne eh? What unit are you with, I am airborne myself.

You're airborne? Stay safe, man. 

 

Damn straight. I'm out of McDill AFB. We're just heading up the collection efforts ISO the National Guard heading to the area. If the situation calls for it, we're preparing to be involved in a more direct role. But, I doubt that'll happen.

 

 

 

Airborne eh? What unit are you with, I am airborne myself.

 

 

Was with the 173rd from 2008-2013. I'm now* with USSOCOM at McDill AFB. You're up in Stuggart? I was in Vicenza, IT before Del Din opened.

Edited August 18, 201411 yr by ArchangelTwo

I highly doubt you or anyone you work with goes out and assists in the daily duties of a local or state police officer. That is a direct violation of Title 10 of the United States code.

 

10 U.S.C. § 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel

 

The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment of facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit the direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.

 

Okay, apparently I suffered a big hallucination. I know what I did.

Okay, apparently I suffered a big hallucination. I know what I did.

All I'm saying is that there is a law that specifically says the military cannot do that.

 

Damn straight. I'm out of McDill AFB. We're just heading up the collection efforts ISO the National Guard heading to the area. If the situation calls for it, we're preparing to be involved in a more direct role. But, I doubt that'll happen.

 

 

 

 

Was with the 173rd from 2008-2013. I'm now* with USSOCOM at McDill AFB. You're up in Stuggart? I was in Vicenza, IT before Del Din opened.

 

No shit, my dad retired from SOCOM this year and is still working there as a DoD contractor now. I used to live up in Pasco County for awhile then did spent some time living in Fort Myers before joining the Army.