MODERATOR NOTICE

These posts about the Israel-Gaza conflict have been split off from the thread about US intervention in Iraq -- cp702

 

WOW terrible move on Obama's behalf. All for what in the name of genocide? Well guess what? The jews are over there in Israel killing off the Palestinians that live their and occupy land. But Obama isn't talking about air striking Israel. Wow I can't wait until this country falls just like the Roman empire did. America has it coming. Russia and China will crush This country soon.

 

You say Obama isn't talking about air striking Israel, but then neither is a single US politician.  Everyone should know of the power of the Israeli and Jewish lobby in the US and everyone should know the way in which Israel is connected to almost every incident in the Middle East.

 

As c13 rightly pointed out, there was stability in Iraq before the US and UK got involved.  Just because it was a stable environment though, doesn't mean it was necessarily the right one.  Thousands of minorities were brutally persecuted by the Iraqi regime - but it was nothing like the scale of violence and lawlessness you see today in Iraq after the US and UK led invasion.  I don't think you can blame Obama for wanting to do something about the mess his country had a large hand in creating, and I think you can tell that the Obama administration isn't happy with the situation in Israel either - John Kerry's off-camera remarks and the Israeli reaction to them give you some insight there, but there's absolutely no appetite in the US, among the politicians or the people, for anyone to do anything about the ongoing hostilities in Gaza and Israel.  I don't think too many people in Congress will have a problem with dropping some more bombs over Iraq though - it's something they're quite familiar with.

 

The world can't just turn a blind eye to either of these situations though.  What's happening in Israel and Gaza has to stop - c13 said that Israel was defending itself, although I disagree.  If you look at the fatalities in Gaza, 74% of them are innocent civilians.  For Israel to be defending itself, you therefore have to assume that the vast majority people that they are killing are in active combat against Israel - which isn't the case when the majority of the death toll is comprised of civilians.  One can and must expect innocent people to get caught up in warfare like this - but not on the scale which is happening in Gaza.  Israel is locked in war with Hamas, the government of Gaza, not the people of Gaza.  It doesn't seem that way from the ever increasing death toll, however.  The US and other nations can't continue to fund this indiscriminate slaying of a population with a clear conscience.  Unfortunately with every day that innocent people are brutally murdered, Hamas will only increase in popularity with the people.  As more and more people begin to support hostilities on both sides - a solution fades further and further away.

 

Russia and China crushing the US is, for now. the stuff of fanatical fiction - they're both a bit too busy crushing their own countries just now, a bit like us.

The world can't just turn a blind eye to either of these situations though. What's happening in Israel and Gaza has to stop - c13 said that Israel was defending itself, although I disagree. If you look at the fatalities in Gaza, 74% of them are innocent civilians. For Israel to be defending itself, you therefore have to assume that the vast majority people that they are killing are in active combat against Israel - which isn't the case when the majority of the death toll is comprised of civilians. One can and must expect innocent people to get caught up in warfare like this - but not on the scale which is happening in Gaza. Israel is locked in war with Hamas, the government of Gaza, not the people of Gaza. It doesn't seem that way from the ever increasing death toll, however. The US and other nations can't continue to fund this indiscriminate slaying of a population with a clear conscience. Unfortunately with every day that innocent people are brutally murdered, Hamas will only increase in popularity with the people. As more and more people begin to support hostilities on both sides - a solution fades further and further away.

I can't really blame you since most western media don't like reporting the true nature of Hamas (probably some BS about not wanting to offend the Islamic faith, as if all Muslims are fanatical).

The first problem in your post is that you're trusting statistics from the Palestinian government, which has 74/132 seats in its legislative body belonging to Hamas. Yes Hamas, the organization that can't even be trusted to maintain a ceasefire, but is some how an authority on casualty estimates that would politically help them gain leverage to prepare for the next rocket attack. That would be similar to the IRA openly holding 364/650 seats in Parliament, then being trusted to give estimates on casualties in attacks initiated by IRA bombs or orchestrated riots.

You're then trusting an organization that has an underground base right below a major hospital. Real brave of them, throwing sick and dying civilians in the way. Due to their nature of shooting collaborators with Israel, and a history of threatening journalists, it's understandable that the press there strictly follow Hamas' guidelines for the media, which include calling everyone a civilian, with emphasis on the "innocent" part, otherwise the media does not get live reports in Gaza, if their lives aren't threatened. Knowing all this, it should be no surprise that despite many claims to the otherwise by the official Palestinian government, the 2008-2009 fighting had "official" estimated casualty numbers jump from 49 militants to between 600 and 700 militants of 1100 casualties.

You then have to look at where they are firing weapon systems from. There have been not 1, but 3 UN sponsored schools that Hamas has attacked from. One of them, after officials found the rockets, gave them back to Hamas. You have recent video out, that isn't being suppressed surprisingly, of Hamas assembling in a populated neighborhood and firing rockets.

Next, if higher civilian casualty numbers were true, it is unfortunately to be expected when the official media station of Hamas Palestine puts forth the following message after Israel broadcasts radio messages and airdrops leaflets warning of attacks, with my guess being that they enforce this with militants to keep people from leaving.

An important and urgent message: The [Hamas] Ministry of the Interior and National Security calls on our honorable people in all parts of the [Gaza] Strip to ignore the warnings [to vacate areas near rocket launching sites before Israel bombs them] that are being disseminated by the Israeli occupation through manifestos and phone messages, as these are part of a psychological war meant to sow confusion on the [Palestinian] home front, in light of the [israeli] enemy's security failure and its confusion and bewilderment.

Finally, this manual, supposedly from Hamas itself, should rest my argument on their use of civilians. But what do I know. According to some, I'm just racist.

So the deaths of hundrends of innocent childs (I don't include civilians as, accoding to your "sources", they are terrorists) in Israeli bombings are justifiend by Hamas actions? Come on...

 

On topic, it was about time the Western did something in regard to this. Jihadism is a plague that must be erradicated. Wrong thread, my mistake.

Edited August 8, 201411 yr by strike

So the deaths of hundrends of innocent childs (I don't include civilians as, accoding to your "sources", they are terrorists) in Israeli bombings are justifiend by Hamas actions? Come on...

On topic, it was about time the Western did something in regard to this. Jihadism is a plague that must be erradicated.

I never said it was good. I said Israel can't be blamed as the primary cause when Hamas purposely puts the children in the situation, and that Hamas is most likely lying about the affiliations of most casualties, like in the 2008-2009 conflict.

Well its safe to say that the UN wasn't exactly smart by deciding to just declare Israel a Jewish state, regardless of biblical prophecies. You basically took it from the Muslims and the country is surrounded by other Islamic countries. Islamic Extremists at that. Israel has no allies in the ME. Only enemies. If the US got involved in any way, I feel that it would be a catalyst for huge war implicating some very very bad countries.

well said c13. Well said. 

I can't really blame you since most western media don't like reporting the true nature of Hamas (probably some BS about not wanting to offend the Islamic faith, as if all Muslims are fanatical).

The first problem in your post is that you're trusting statistics from the Palestinian government, which has 74/132 seats in its legislative body belonging to Hamas. Yes Hamas, the organization that can't even be trusted to maintain a ceasefire, but is some how an authority on casualty estimates that would politically help them gain leverage to prepare for the next rocket attack. That would be similar to the IRA openly holding 364/650 seats in Parliament, then being trusted to give estimates on casualties in attacks initiated by IRA bombs or orchestrated riots.

You're then trusting an organization that has an underground base right below a major hospital. Real brave of them, throwing sick and dying civilians in the way. Due to their nature of shooting collaborators with Israel, and a history of threatening journalists, it's understandable that the press there strictly follow Hamas' guidelines for the media, which include calling everyone a civilian, with emphasis on the "innocent" part, otherwise the media does not get live reports in Gaza, if their lives aren't threatened. Knowing all this, it should be no surprised that despite many claims to the otherwise by the official Palestinian government, the 2008-2009 fighting had "official" estimated casualty numbers jump from 49 militants to between 600 and 700 militants of 1100 casualties.

You then have to look at where they are firing weapon systems from. There have been not 1, but 3 UN sponsored schools that Hamas has attacked from. One of them, after officials found the rockets, gave them back to Hamas. You have recent video out, that isn't being suppressed surprisingly, of Hamas assembling in a populated neighborhood and firing rockets.

Finally, if higher civilian casualty numbers were true, it is unfortunately to be expected when the official media station of Hamas Palestine puts forth the following message after Israel broadcasts radio messages and airdrops leaflets warning of attacks, with my guess being that they enforce this with militants to keep people from leaving.Finally, this manual, supposedly from Hamas itself, should rest my argument on their use of civilians. But what do I know. According to some, I'm just racist.

 

Edited August 8, 201411 yr by treyjames

I never said it was good. I said Israel can't be blamed as the primary cause when Hamas purposely puts the children in the situation, and that Hamas is most likely lying about the affiliations of most casualties, like in the 2008-2009 conflict.

 

I don't really get what you mean with saying that Hamas is putting the children in the situation. Do you mean that the actions of Hamas are the actual responsible of those deaths as they are responsible at the same time of the consequent Israeli military actions or you are referring to the supposed relation of Hamas with the whole civilian population?

Edited August 8, 201411 yr by strike

I don't really get what you mean with saying that Hamas is putting the children in the situation. Do you mean that the actions of Hamas are the actual responsible of those deaths as they are responsible at the same time of the consequent Israeli military actions or you are referring to the supposed relation of Hamas with the whole civilian population?

Hamas is firing missiles from schools, telling civilians to ignore Israel's warnings of future attacks and in some cases running forward carrying assault rifles and babies.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/wap/Item.aspx?type=0&item=183211

Since Hamas initiated the actions and put the civilians, including children, at risk, the responsibility lies primarily on Hamas.

Still, I don't see how can that justify the killing of civilians. I doubt that most of them were human shields. A proper military action would never allow it happen.

Personally just get rid of the Palestinians from that are of the world make them move or some shit all they do is join Hamas and rocket the hell outta Israel daily  conduct terrorist attack's and kidnapped and kill Isreal teenager's they should just let Isreal finish the job and go in and crsuh them so Isreal citizen's don't have to worry bout rocket attack's or terror attacks daily

Still, I don't see how can that justify the killing of civilians. I doubt that most of them were human shields. A proper military action would never allow it happen.

That's the problem with guerilla warfare, that cowards often hide behind civilians. According to the Geneva Accords, while militaries aren't allowed to target civilians, civilians can still be killed if they are acting as human shields for military targets.

Israel tried with air dropped leaflets and broadcasted messages, but they can't help it if civilians, some purposefully, put themselves in harms way at the urging of the guerilla force. And it's especially cowardly to urge civilians to be extra bodies for your cause.

Israel defends itself, but pays very little attention to others. Well, maybe Palestinians should fight Hamas too, or accept all the consequences of this war. Hamas has majority in Palestinian parliament which means they have huge support among civilians. Hitler was widely supported too - and many of his civilians supporters were killed during the war. 

Well its safe to say that the UN wasn't exactly smart by deciding to just declare Israel a Jewish state, regardless of biblical prophecies. You basically took it from the Muslims and the country is surrounded by other Islamic countries. Islamic Extremists at that. Israel has no allies in the ME. Only enemies. If the US got involved in any way, I feel that it would be a catalyst for huge war implicating some very very bad countries.

 

That's not correct. A lot of jewish settlers emmigrated to where Israel is now back in 1914 and bought land from the arab owners. More and more jewish settlers followed and legally bought the land there. Nobody thought that they could build something in the desert - yet Tel Aviv became the biggest city there.

 

If you want to go back to the beginnings: The Jews (2000 B.C.) have lived there before islam even came into existence (600 A.C.). So when muslim countries claim Israel's land their land they make the mistake of believing that the jews haven't lived there before them.

 

So the League of Nations' (before UN) decision made a lot of sense back then. Iraq and Iran were under british and french rule and a lot of jewish settlers had already bought a lot of land there and built Tel Aviv. So after WW2, when a lot of Jews were looking for a new place to live after the cruels of the Third Reich, the play where Israel is now made perfect sense.

 

Another argument we often hear is that Jerusalem is one of the holiest places for muslims. Well it is too forJews AND for Christians, still we - christians - are not all about "give us back Bethlehem and Nazareth" - we can deal with it.

 

But apart from history:

In the last Israel-Gaza-War, Hamas attacked and launched missiles AFTER the israeli government stopped the settlement initiatives. Again this time: In a time of relative "peace" Hamas just kidnapped israeli teenagers and killed them. Israel, as a nation, has the duty to protect its citizens. Now who has the most interests in keeping this war alive? Hamas. If this war ended, Hamas would loose its power and that is exactly what they can't afford.

 

So while Israel would theoretically want peace in Gaza, Hamas doesn't want peace - without war, Hamas is nothing. Also: Hamas' claims are absolutely inacceptable. They always ask for the stop of the settlement initiative and after israel acctepts they start firing again.

Also: demanding a part of Jerusalem for the palestinian people is inacceptable. Dividing Jerusalem like Berlin would be the worst thing that could happen to the city (fun fact: Nazareth and Bethlehem would be in a 'palestinian state' - still: doesn't matter for me).

And I don't have a very high opinion of people who celebrated when the towers collapsed (9/11) or when the London Metro got bombed.

 

So to sum it up: Hamas fights dirty - they use civilians as shields, they have their bases of operation on hospitals or schools - israel has to take the shot though. Hamas has no interest in peace - that would destroy their organization. And jewish settlers have been longer there than most of us know - since 1914 in fact.

 

I still admit that the casualties are not proportional - israel has far better weapons. But I unfortunately don't know of any other solution until the people in Gaza realize that Hamas is their true enemy and kick them out of their civilian buildings.

Whatever the History and Present is all i can say is- "Israel has a lot to learn from India" - the way India handled the Kashmir issue is a model example of how armed/deadly conflict between two opposing sides can be turned into a better relationship by mutual trust, providing health care and education, technological development and giving youngsters a better chance at life. A clear example is how the State i live in has special Reservations/Provisions for studies, jobs and admissions for Kashmiri migrants. Although sometimes violent issues do happen in Kashmir but it is mainly due to Pakistani Military backed jihadis and sometimes the Pakistani Army themselves. But the current situation in Kashmir is far more better that what it was between 1947-1990s. 

 

Excerpts from a TOI Interview article: 'It used to be quite terrible in Kashmir but things started to take a positive turn when the Indian government started to invest in education and found ways to send youngsters to learn outside the state. Their energies got channelised into constructive things. It helped ease the situation and also get control over the spiralling violence. Things would have been very different if India would have resorted to violent means to take control of the disturbed territory. I went to Aligarh Muslim University and my brother went to Manipal (University). We learnt and moved on in life. There are so many other youngsters my age who benefited from the Indian government's thinking and came out of the cycle of violence'- Says Lubna a Kashmiri woman who now is married to a Palestinian.

 

What i feel here is if Israel helps to creates similar opportunities of growth, industrial development and education with their neighbors they wont only build mutual trust but their relationship would prosper, people would stop hating each other and everyone would finally leave in peace. Both of the armed neighbors should tone down their attitude come with a more feasible and better solution that can benefit both countries and help the troubled region prosper in the near future.

Whatever the History and Present is all i can say is- "Israel has a lot to learn from India" - the way India handled the Kashmir issue is a model example of how armed/deadly conflict between two opposing sides can be turned into a better relationship by mutual trust, providing health care and education, technological development and giving youngsters a better chance at life. A clear example is how the State i live in has special Reservations/Provisions for studies, jobs and admissions for Kashmiri migrants. Although sometimes violent issues do happen in Kashmir but it is mainly due to Pakistani Military backed jihadis and sometimes the Pakistani Army themselves. But the current situation in Kashmir is far more better that what it was between 1947-1990s. 

 

Excerpts from a TOI Interview article: 'It used to be quite terrible in Kashmir but things started to take a positive turn when the Indian government started to invest in education and found ways to send youngsters to learn outside the state. Their energies got channelised into constructive things. It helped ease the situation and also get control over the spiralling violence. Things would have been very different if India would have resorted to violent means to take control of the disturbed territory. I went to Aligarh Muslim University and my brother went to Manipal (University). We learnt and moved on in life. There are so many other youngsters my age who benefited from the Indian government's thinking and came out of the cycle of violence'- Says Lubna a Kashmiri woman who now is married to a Palestinian.

 

What i feel here is if Israel helps to creates similar opportunities of growth, industrial development and education with their neighbors they wont only build mutual trust but their relationship would prosper, people would stop hating each other and everyone would finally leave in peace. Both of the armed neighbors should tone down their attitude come with a more feasible and better solution that can benefit both countries and help the troubled region prosper in the near future.

The problem is that concrete given to Hamas since 2007 for building schools has been used instead to build over 40 underground tunnels for militants, and the civilians are once again suffering because of Hamas. While I don't know much about the Kashmir and India conflicts, I would assume that the Kashmir's don't have a charter that calls for the killing of all Indians.