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XP support?


rushlink

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I thought it would be fruitful for the community to start a discussion on this.  About 30% of computers are still running xp.  Microsoft just announced that they will continue to offer security updates to XP until 2015.  It's not "unsupported" my microsoft by any means.

 

Anyway, it's possible... and in the case of LCPDFR most likely a very simple process to build for .net 4.0 instead of 4.5.  It's a matter of pointing the compiler to .net 4.0 instead of 4.5.   .net 4.5 doesn't add much in the way of functionality, and what it does add I could be fairly certain that lcpdfr won't ever use.

 

What is the issue with releasing multiple downloads.

Vista + (built with .net 4.5)

and

XP (built with 4.0)

 

In fact, you could just build for 4.0 and release for all operating systems.

 

One third of people can't use the mod because it's built for vista and above.  For no legitimate reason.  The only benefit that 4.5 will offer such a program as lcpdfr is performance upgrades.  If you are running GTA IV, you aren't going to notice any difference between the two versions of .net

 

 

How many of you are still running XP that can no longer play... If you still bother visiting the site, that is.

 

It makes me sad to see indie & amateur community straying away from xp.  While large companies are still releasing for xp many many scripters and single person developers for games are no longer supporting xp.  Either because they don't know how to do so, or they run a new version of windows and don't see the benefit of running xp.

 

Anything i can run on xp will run so much smoother than it does on 7.  7 Is a great OS.  That's what i use on my main computer & laptop.  But I have a couple of XP machines as well.  They're just 'solid'.  Don't have the overhead that a graphically intensive system such as 7 & vista have.  I can boot to xp in a matter of seconds.  On the same hardware 7 takes 2-3 times as long.  This is just an example.

 

I've heard the excuse "it's a 12 year old operating system" a million times.  Most distributions of linux are much much older than that.

Windows vista (which is supported) is getting on for 10 years now.  7 is getting on for, what, 4-5 years?

 

If we let ourselves go down this road of no longer supporting old operating systems, 70% of us will be running windows 8 in a few years... Is that really what the community wants to see?

 

So...
What gives?  It'd take 30 seconds for the lcpdfr team to build for xp & not doing so is pushing 30% of consumers out of the community :/

 

Do you run xp still?... that is, if you still visit this site anymore.

 

 

Edited by rushlink

Community director, www.lc-gaming.net

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I thought it would be fruitful for the community to start a discussion on this.  About 30% of computers are still running xp.  Microsoft just announced that they will continue to offer security updates to XP until 2015.  It's not "unsupported" my microsoft by any means.

 

One third of people can't use the mod because it's built for vista and above.  For no legitimate reason.  The only benefit that 4.5 will offer such a program as lcpdfr is performance upgrades.  If you are running GTA IV, you aren't going to notice any difference between the two versions of .net

 

 

How many of you are still running XP that can no longer play... If you still bother visiting the site, that is.

 

It makes me sad to see indie & amateur community straying away from xp.  While large companies are still releasing for xp many many scripters and single person developers for games are no longer supporting xp.  Either because they don't know how to do so, or they run a new version of windows and don't see the benefit of running xp.

  

I've heard the excuse "it's a 12 year old operating system" a million times.  Most distributions of linux are much much older than that.

Windows vista (which is supported) is getting on for 10 years now.  7 is getting on for, what, 4-5 years?

 

If we let ourselves go down this road of no longer supporting old operating systems, 70% of us will be running windows 8 in a few years... Is that really what the community wants to see?

I've cut out all the gumf about programming in .net as I've never done it and therefore can't comment...

 

First point

How do you know 1/3 of people can't use the mod if you then later go and ask how many people use xp?

True fact, 98% of statistics are made up on the spot.

 

Also like you said 4.5 offers performance upgrades, security ones too. If you're running a mod for a community where a large number of people aren't educated enough about PC's to know how to fix errors would it not be more beneficial to keep it performing at optimal so they don't panic when it crashes every 2 minutes?

 

Second point

Large companies still support it because they pay a HUGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE to carry on, whole teams in programming in fact. Not just 3 or 4 people who volunteer. And yes, businesses do use xp a lot, so do a lot of things. But your average pc user will stay up to date.

 

Third point

Most distributions are not older than that. The main 3 that people use (ubuntu, fedora and mint) were updated December 2013...Like windows was.

 

Fourth point

70% of us will be running windows 8, yes because it's newer. You can't buy a pc now without it running the latest software (unless you self build) a huge number of people on the internet are not tech savy like us, so they buy a pc. 

 

Sorry if this sounds aggressive it isn't meant to, I just wanted to pull out a few key points, as you said this is a discussion. :)

 

My last point....

 

Generally speaking the majority rules.

If you code for the majority (your apparently, 2/3 of us who don't use xp) you will push out the minority yes.

But surely that is better than holding back from the majority just so the minority can still play.

Edited by LukeD

Live Streaming daily from 8pm GMT (UK) at https://twitch.tv/OfficialLukeD - I play a variety of things 😄

Join my official discord server for support, general chat and my stream schedule! https://discord.gg/Mddj7PQ

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From Microsoft themselves:

 

"Running a well-protected solution starts with using modern software and hardware designed to help protect against today's threat landscape"

 

I'm pretty sure that's them warning against using their own outdated operating system.  Microsoft only continues to support XP in a very limited fashion because large corporations still use it in massive numbers.  It is not our fault that they only offer a very limited amount of support for XP, and as LCPDFR runs on the .Net Framework 4.5, made by Microsoft, which doesn't support XP - by design - this is something we have no control over whatsoever.  It's not our decision to not support XP, it's Microsoft's.

 

It doesn't matter how old it is, it's simply a case of Microsoft no longer supporting one of their older operating systems in their own software.  LCPDFR relies on .Net 4.5, and we don't have the time or the resources to make a separate version of it that instead runs on 4.0.

 

 

"You tell me exactly what you want, and I will very carefully explain to you why it cannot be."

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As much as I like Windows XP, it's time to move on. XP was great, but the updates brought to later versions of Windows, more specifically Windows 7 and 8, is the future. As said above, it's because of security and stability, something that is very much indeed preferred when coding a application of this size. 

Invenio, Investigatio, Imperium

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I've cut out all the gumf about programming in .net as I've never done it and therefore can't comment...

 

First point

How do you know 1/3 of people can't use the mod if you then later go and ask how many people use xp?

True fact, 98% of statistics are made up on the spot.

 

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=11&qpaf=&qpcustom=Windows+XP&qpcustomb=0

 

Also like you said 4.5 offers performance upgrades, security ones too. If you're running a mod for a community where a large number of people aren't educated enough about PC's to know how to fix errors would it not be more beneficial to keep it performing at optimal so they don't panic when it crashes every 2 minutes?

 

Performance upgrades shouldn't have any effect on the stability of the program.  If it's going to crash, a more optimized solution means that it'll just crash a little bit faster.  On that note... If LCPDFR crashes it's because of the code implemented by the LCPDFR team, or something to do with GTA IV.  It will crash exactly the same way on 4 as it will on 4.5

 

Second point

Large companies still support it because they pay a HUGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE to carry on, whole teams in programming in fact. Not just 3 or 4 people who volunteer. And yes, businesses do use xp a lot, so do a lot of things. But your average pc user will stay up to date.

 

Large companies support it because they understand that they're cutting 30% of the market out by not supporting it.  For a majority of solutions, building for xp would take (as in this case) a few minutes.  1. build as normal, 2. point compiler at 4.0, 3. build for xp, done.

 

Third point

Most distributions are not older than that. The main 3 that people use (ubuntu, fedora and mint) were updated December 2013...Like windows was.

 

Updated and 'released' are two different things.  XP was updated not too long ago, within a couple years if I am correct.

 

Fourth point

70% of us will be running windows 8, yes because it's newer. You can't buy a pc now without it running the latest software (unless you self build) a huge number of people on the internet are not tech savy like us, so they buy a pc. 

 

Indeed.  I have, however seen an increase in the number of people willing to build a computer in the past few years.  I've had friends who have no clue what they're doing building computers. This may just be the situation that I am in right now, and the people who surround me.  Building a computer tends to be cheaper in the long run.  

 

Sorry if this sounds aggressive it isn't meant to, I just wanted to pull out a few key points, as you said this is a discussion. :)

 

My last point....

 

Generally speaking the majority rules.

If you code for the majority (your apparently, 2/3 of us who don't use xp) you will push out the minority yes.

But surely that is better than holding back from the majority just so the minority can still play.

You can build for both, is what I'm saying.  It's not hard.  You dont even need two different releases.  You could just build one solution for both systems.  I can understand points in the next post with the concerns of building just one solution.  But i'll get to that in a minute.  (probably take me longer to reply to that than it would to build for xp at the time of compile).

 

 

From Microsoft themselves:

 

"Running a well-protected solution starts with using modern software and hardware designed to help protect against today's threat landscape"

 

I'm pretty sure that's them warning against using their own outdated operating system.  Microsoft only continues to support XP in a very limited fashion because large corporations still use it in massive numbers.  It is not our fault that they only offer a very limited amount of support for XP, and as LCPDFR runs on the .Net Framework 4.5, made by Microsoft, which doesn't support XP - by design - this is something we have no control over whatsoever.  It's not our decision to not support XP, it's Microsoft's.

 

It doesn't matter how old it is, it's simply a case of Microsoft no longer supporting one of their older operating systems in their own software.  LCPDFR relies on .Net 4.5, and we don't have the time or the resources to make a separate version of it that instead runs on 4.0.

 

Hey sam.  That's the part that I'm confused on.  I could be fairly certain that the team has spent more time writing disclaimers stating "xp is not supported" than it would have taken to click over to .net 4.0 when you are compiling.

If I remember correctly (as you use visual studio to compile, yeah), it's a dropdown menu in the project settings or something.  In fact... I think with visual studio you can set it up to build for two solutions.

And...

Of course microsoft wants you to purchase the latest software, that's how they make money :P 

What I've always said about security patches...

If 80% of people are using an updaed version that fixes a security hole, that security hole is unlikely to be exploited.  That's why one of my computers runs windows 7 with no updates - almost instant boot, and the security benifits from updating do absolutely nothing as the holes they patch are no longer exploited.  It's similar to the statement "mac's don't get viruses".  They do, but how often... hardly ever, because no one uses them.

Community director, www.lc-gaming.net

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It's not just to click a button and voila you have a XP-capable version of LCPDFR 1.0. Even if they did, it would cause issues for those running the newer version of Windows. 

 

And not downloading updates to Windows is really, really, really stupid. 

Invenio, Investigatio, Imperium

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But is that representative of the lcpdfr userbase is what I'm saying, I know most ATM machines are currently running on xp. They must then be counted in those figures too. you can't play a game on a bank machine can you :P

 

One other thing, microsoft have said they would stop publishing updates for xp in april this year. Because it is phasing out.

A later report said that because business aren't moving away from xp fast enough that they would continue to provide virus updates for xp machines. but not patch updates.

 

If a business wrote something for xp they aren't going to quickly go "oh no let's spend a huge amount of our profits as a company re-writing everything for a new version of windows" that isn't because they prefer xp it's because it would cost them too much to make that change, so they don't want to. It really hasn't got much to do with who is and isn't on the market.

I mean look at our crumbling banks in England. Any one person in that room who said "let's rip out every single one of our old ATM's and replace them with brand new windows 8 ones" they would probably be cleaning out their desk within the hour and leaving.

 

I quote the microsoft website here

 

If you continue to use Windows XP after support ends, your computer will still work but it might become more vulnerable to security risks and viruses. Also, as more software and hardware manufacturers continue to optimize for more recent versions of Windows, you can expect to encounter greater numbers of apps and devices that do not work with Windows XP.

 

It's that second sentence I want to draw focus to...

 

"as more software and hardware manufacturers continue to optimize for more recent versions"

 

People don't build software for windows xp any more. Why? Because there is no money it it. you said yourself microsoft want you to move to windows 8 for profit, but if they do that then where do the software houses go? Carry on building for a no longer support OS? No of course not they get all the latest files and build for windows 8 so they too can profit.

 

Swings and roundabouts. We could probably dispute this with each other for days. But I fear someone will pop in and say something and spark a flame war so I will just agree to disagree with you and call it quits :)

 

Dev's decision at the end of the day.

Live Streaming daily from 8pm GMT (UK) at https://twitch.tv/OfficialLukeD - I play a variety of things 😄

Join my official discord server for support, general chat and my stream schedule! https://discord.gg/Mddj7PQ

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  • Management Team

You can argue this point as much as you want -- it's not going to magically fix it, the thing is LCPDFR depends on .NET 4.5 and some of the new features of it -- .NET 4.5 doesn't exist on Windows XP.

It's not as simple as changing the .NET framework target. If it was, don't you think we would have already done it?

We're not going to make a separate version for XP users.

Whether Microsoft chooses to support XP for the .NET 4.5 in the future is their choice, if they do, LCPDFR will work.

This is probably our last official response and stance on this issue.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

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I understand your frustration, but it just isn't something we have the time to do at the moment.  LMS, our main LCPDFR developer, doesn't have the time any more as he's started back up in education after the Christmas holidays and also is caught up in a lot of problems in real life, and I can't make these changes myself either as I'm far too busy at this moment in time myself.

 

If we had known that people actually still used XP, and that .Net Framework 4.5 didn't support it, this is something we could have thought about during the development, but it honestly came as a surprise to me both that XP was still in use for gaming, and that it lacked 4.5 support.  We built LCPDFR 1.0 on 4.5 because of the debugging tools it offered us, as well as the fact that the client profile version was discontinued, and it was instead released only as the full version.  We had so many problems in the past with people only installing the client profile version of 4.0, with many people understandably confused between the two versions.

"You tell me exactly what you want, and I will very carefully explain to you why it cannot be."

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