This is turning out to be a very good debate, me like. Now listen, this is to Tom, okay this is how I would do it, like what you said what if a terrorist was threatening to blow a elementary school or carry out a massive genocide on a city like New York, unless you valid evidence and I mean valid, that he/she has the bomb, instead of torutuing the suspect, you break them psychological and get into their heads, something more efficient, again torture has been proven to be ineffective many times.

 

 

But then the question is what do you consider an acceptable form of psychological interrogation? Essentially leaving a man in a dark room with no clothes and nothing to eat would be a form of psychological interrogation, but then again some would consider that torture. And the CIA has used that technique before. It's outlined in the report as torture, I do believe. 

But then the question is what do you consider an acceptable form of psychological interrogation? Essentially leaving a man in a dark room with no clothes and nothing to eat would be a form of psychological interrogation, but then again some would consider that torture. And the CIA has used that technique before. It's outlined in the report as torture, I do believe.

Dear, never thought of it that way, what you just mentioned is wrong and plain embarrassment. I think an acceptable form would be one that breaks down the suspect and convices them to confess or maybe show a stack of files they have against the suspect and throw it at them, but definitely not what you just metioned.

So what you're saying is, we should all be controlled and do whatever they say? It's not our business to know what the government does? Oh yea, real smart there, buddy. Not like that could turn into total tyranny.

 

Obviously we do have the right to know what happens with our government, but take the alien scenario for example. Everybody would flip the fuck if the government told us aliens were present, and that they're keeping them in some military base, and they don't tell us because they don't want us to freak out and cause a scene. Super tyrannical, right? Forgive me, o great one, for I have encouraged tyranny.

Obviously we do have the right to know what happens with our government, but take the alien scenario for example. Everybody would flip the fuck if the government told us aliens were present, and that they're keeping them in some military base, and they don't tell us because they don't want us to freak out and cause a scene. Super tyrannical, right? Forgive me, o great one, for I have encouraged tyranny.

I sense sarcasm in this post and I don't think offcierlund deserves that, furthermore you're wrong when you everybody will flip out because people like myself will remain calm and eager to await the incoming envidence about the aliens.

Obviously we do have the right to know what happens with our government, but take the alien scenario for example. Everybody would flip the fuck if the government told us aliens were present, and that they're keeping them in some military base, and they don't tell us because they don't want us to freak out and cause a scene. Super tyrannical, right? Forgive me, o great one, for I have encouraged tyranny.

With your comment, it seemed like you didn't give a shit. No need to get all smart. Maybe word it a little better instead of saying, "don't get yourself in the government's business because you have no right in knowing everything in the fucking world."

So what you're saying is, we should all be controlled and do whatever they say? It's not our business to know what the government does? Oh yea, real smart there, buddy. Not like that could turn into total tyranny.

*cough cough, choke spit*. I think it already has, *choke, drinks water*

*cough cough, choke spit*. I think it already has, *choke, drinks water*

We're getting there.

I sense sarcasm in this post and I don't think offcierlund deserves that, furthermore you're wrong when you everybody will flip out because people like myself will remain calm and eager to await the incoming envidence about the aliens.

 

I'm sure you're a perfectly rational person, but not everybody would have the same approach as you.

 

Well frankly I do not understand why people are making such a fight over the CIA treatment of detainees, there is a very small percentage that choose to go into the military or federal government, while some of it may be corrupt many have worked their entire career in the interest of protecting our assets and ensuring our citizens safety. With that being said, I don't understand WHAT THE FUCK people are talking about. Sorry I missed how everyone in the nation is a national security expert and knows exactly what is needed for the gathering of intelligence for this nation. On the flip side, complaining of human rights issues, the detainees are more often than not are placed into custody with irrefutable evidence to tie them to some terrorist acts or organizations, in that case WHY THE FUCK are people worried about the rights of these people, who might as well be goddamn animals for the acts they have done. Not to mention those who haven't served in the military shouldn't have such vexed opinions against cruel treatment of terrorists because they're NOT THE ONES GOING DOWN RANGE AGAINST THESE GUYS

 

 

LASTLY If torturing a terrorist will save just ONE MORE American life abroad, then by all means break every bone in his body for all I care.

 

I simply fail to understand why people are so concerned over the rights of terrorists when it is OUR brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins, friends, neighbors, etc. that are forward deployed and can potentially loose their life due to a lack of proper intel. I may be preaching it to the choir, but I feel like those who are pushing for the rights of these detainees are betraying their nation, while I do support human rights and fair treatment, this world isn't all rainbows and gumdrops the real world is a tough place.

 

I leave with a quote

"War is cruelty. There is no use in reforming it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over." - General William Sherman 

Edited December 13, 201411 yr by RexCramer

Well frankly I do not understand why people are making such a fight over the CIA treatment of detainees, there is a very small percentage that choose to go into the military or federal government, while some of it may be corrupt many have worked their entire career in the interest of protecting our assets and ensuring our citizens safety. With that being said, I don't understand WHAT THE FUCK people are talking about. Sorry I missed how everyone in the nation is a national security expert and knows exactly what is needed for the gathering of intelligence for this nation. On the flip side, complaining of human rights issues, the detainees are more often than not are placed into custody with irrefutable evidence to tie them to some terrorist acts or organizations, in that case WHY THE FUCK are people worried about the rights of these people, who might as well be goddamn animals for the acts they have done. Not to mention those who haven't served in the military shouldn't have such vexed opinions against cruel treatment of terrorists because they're NOT THE ONES GOING DOWN RANGE AGAINST THESE GUYS

LASTLY If torturing a terrorist will save just ONE MORE American life abroad, then by all means break every bone in his body for all I care.

I simply fail to understand why people are so concerned over the rights of terrorists when it is OUR brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins, friends, neighbors, etc. that are forward deployed and can potentially loose their life due to a lack of proper intel. I may be preaching it to the choir, but I feel like those who are pushing for the rights of these detainees are betraying their nation, while I do support human rights and fair treatment, this world isn't all rainbows and gumdrops the real world is a tough place.

I leave with a quote

"War is cruelty. There is no use in reforming it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over." - General William Sherman

First of all, I don't see how anyone here was implying that they were an expert on national security, you're the one that said that. Also I've not betrayed my country, I just simply believe in human rights. Say what you want, but the fact of the matter is lots of innocents were taken into custody and had their rights violated. And you say "break every bone in their body" now that's just immoral and disgusting, you're literally crippling a person and more than likely a person will die from that kind of torment. You sound like the typical American who thinks their government is so perfect, that we should not judge them based on their actions.

Edited December 13, 201411 yr by Chester199

Don't know...now the CIA sounds fun...lol

Well frankly I do not understand why people are making such a fight over the CIA treatment of detainees, there is a very small percentage that choose to go into the military or federal government, while some of it may be corrupt many have worked their entire career in the interest of protecting our assets and ensuring our citizens safety. With that being said, I don't understand WHAT THE FUCK people are talking about. Sorry I missed how everyone in the nation is a national security expert and knows exactly what is needed for the gathering of intelligence for this nation. On the flip side, complaining of human rights issues, the detainees are more often than not are placed into custody with irrefutable evidence to tie them to some terrorist acts or organizations, in that case WHY THE FUCK are people worried about the rights of these people, who might as well be goddamn animals for the acts they have done. Not to mention those who haven't served in the military shouldn't have such vexed opinions against cruel treatment of terrorists because they're NOT THE ONES GOING DOWN RANGE AGAINST THESE GUYS

 

 

LASTLY If torturing a terrorist will save just ONE MORE American life abroad, then by all means break every bone in his body for all I care.

 

I simply fail to understand why people are so concerned over the rights of terrorists when it is OUR brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins, friends, neighbors, etc. that are forward deployed and can potentially loose their life due to a lack of proper intel. I may be preaching it to the choir, but I feel like those who are pushing for the rights of these detainees are betraying their nation, while I do support human rights and fair treatment, this world isn't all rainbows and gumdrops the real world is a tough place.

 

I leave with a quote

"War is cruelty. There is no use in reforming it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over." - General William Sherman 

 

I don't even know what to say to this...only that you have no idea what you said....it seems like you are saying it's okay for "suspected terriorst" (even innocent people who have not committed a crime) to be tortured, beaten, abused, and in some cases killed.

 

Now with everything that I have said (from past post too) I have no issue with torture. I do in fact, have a issue with a federal government agency lying to the American people about what they did...and that innocent American citizens charged with no crime were beated and killed under the suspect of terrorist activities.

 

Bet you would feel deferent if the CIA was doing this stuff to you without a reason.
 

Don Cherry, a Canadian hockey announcer, once said:

 

"If hooking up one [OMITTED] terrorist prisoner's testicles to a car battery to get the truth out of the lying little [OMITTED] will save just one Canadian life, then I have only three things to say:

"Red is positive, black is negative, and make sure his nuts are wet . "

 

Replace Canada with America in this, and you have my opinion in a nutshell.

I simply fail to understand why people are so concerned over the rights of terrorists when it is OUR brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins, friends, neighbors, etc. that are forward deployed and can potentially loose their life due to a lack of proper intel. I may be preaching it to the choir, but I feel like those who are pushing for the rights of these detainees are betraying their nation, while I do support human rights and fair treatment, this world isn't all rainbows and gumdrops the real world is a tough place.

Pushing to change how the United States government does its business is never betraying the nation. It is living up to the principles of a representative democracy, in which the people of the United States (within certain limits that operate solely to prevent the government from doing certain things, never to force it to do something) ultimately decide how the United States government operates. Not the very small percentage who have devoted their careers to focusing on a single thing; they do not get to do whatever they think is best. It's not ultimately up to them; it's up to the general public. No one claims that a random person off the street knows anything about national security, but that doesn't mean he doesn't get a say in what the government should be doing. That's the only way it can be in a democracy.

Pushing to change how the United States government does its business is never betraying the nation. It is living up to the principles of a representative democracy, in which the people of the United States (within certain limits that operate solely to prevent the government from doing certain things, never to force it to do something) ultimately decide how the United States government operates. Not the very small percentage who have devoted their careers to focusing on a single thing; they do not get to do whatever they think is best. It's not ultimately up to them; it's up to the general public. No one claims that a random person off the street knows anything about national security, but that doesn't mean he doesn't get a say in what the government should be doing. That's the only way it can be in a democracy.

 

So much this ^^^^^^^^^.

Torturing a terrorist who is willing to hide behind kids and women, and then shoot you dead in the back? I see no problem with that. When you don't know who the enemy is, you start to lose perspective on morals. When they've abandoned all morals, it's hard to keep yours. When you see a group of people; children, women and men, and know damn well that any of them or ALL of them could pull at AK out, or blow themselves up, it starts to justify torture. 

 

It's different when you're fighting a known enemy (country vs country), and you can have respect and decency for the combatants. They don't use dirty, underhanded, and moral-less tactics.

 

Seeing what I've seen recently, it was disturbing, but just about 90% of them actually had something they were hiding. I don't think there's any reason to change our interrogation tactics. 

It's different when you're fighting a known enemy (country vs country), and you can have respect and decency for the combatants. They don't use dirty, underhanded, and moral-less tactics.

 

It's true that the US never used undecent and cruel weapons during the Vietnam war.

 

*coughs* Agent Orange, napalm *coughs*

 

That's not because they have no moral that people fighting them have to lower themselves to them. That's not how it works. Or should I say, that's not how it should work.

I don't need an opinion from someone who is nowhere near the US and has no idea how our country works on a day to day basis. Thanks for your input, though!

 

 

Don't enter an opinion thread then.  The clue is in the tag: 'debate'.

 

Lol, I can ignore it all I want. I think I have more credibility than a lot of Americans judging other places because I have lived in England (twice), the middle east, and East Asia. Trust me, no place, in my opinion, comes close to the US.

 

I can agree with the notion that no place comes close to the US.  It is a truly special country in many different ways.  It is also at the same time in a really bad way just now.  A lot of people in here have simply pointed out the blatantly obvious failures of recent US foreign policy - failures made only more clear by the Senate report into torture.  It's a damming report and really it should be a wake up call for people to realise that the American strategy in the middle east is not working.   Over 10 years ago, the war on terror began.  Billions of dollars and thousands of American (and British and Canadian and Australian and so on) lives later, is terrorism dead?  Is Afghanistan a 'prosperous democracy'?  Is Iraq reaping the rewards of having their formerly US supported dictator killed?

 

The middle east is a bigger mess now than it ever has been, and with the US still screwing up pretty much everything it does there, what's the shame in admitting that your government doesn't have a clue?

It's true that the US never used undecent and cruel weapons during the Vietnam war.

 

*coughs* Agent Orange, napalm *coughs*

 

That's not because they have no moral that people fighting them have to lower themselves to them. That's not how it works. Or should I say, that's not how it should work.

 

Well argue that all you want, but the "official" use was not a weapon to kill or injure. It was classified as a defoliant. 

 

Yes I get what you mean,  but "officially" it wasn't a dirty or underhanded tactic.

Don't enter an opinion thread then.  The clue is in the tag: 'debate'.

 

 

I can agree with the notion that no place comes close to the US.  It is a truly special country in many different ways.  It is also at the same time in a really bad way just now.  A lot of people in here have simply pointed out the blatantly obvious failures of recent US foreign policy - failures made only more clear by the Senate report into torture.  It's a damming report and really it should be a wake up call for people to realise that the American strategy in the middle east is not working.   Over 10 years ago, the war on terror began.  Billions of dollars and thousands of American (and British and Canadian and Australian and so on) lives later, is terrorism dead?  Is Afghanistan a 'prosperous democracy'?  Is Iraq reaping the rewards of having their formerly US supported dictator killed?

 

The middle east is a bigger mess now than it ever has been, and with the US still screwing up pretty much everything it does there, what's the shame in admitting that your government doesn't have a clue?

The American people tend to separate themselves from the American government. I have yet to meet someone here in the United States that can say "I love our government and I feel that they make the right decisions" without laughing or walking away.

 

According to Yahoo News, In our last mid-term election, only 63% of Americans participated in the voting, why some may ask? Because Americans are tired of the bull shit, hate to put it in such blunt terms. We vote people into office, and they don't do what they said they would do. It's all the same each election and the American people don't care anymore.

Edited December 14, 201411 yr by CriminalKillaz

The American people tend to separate themselves from the American government. I have yet to meet someone here in the United States that can say "I love our government and I feel that they make the right decisions" without laughing or walking away.

 

According to Yahoo News, In our last mid-term election, only 63% of Americans participated in the voting, why some may ask? Because Americans are tired of the bull shit, hate to put it in such blunt terms. We vote people into office, and they don't do what they said they would do. It's all the same each election and the American people don't care anymore.

You've got the causality pretty much backwards there. First off, the claim that politicians never keep promises is wrong - seriously, people have done studies (particularly for presidential promises), and politicians do work to implement the vast majority of their promises (the thing is that "work towards" is the best anyone can do, because it's not possible to come in and just say "Here's how things work now;" also, the (much rarer) broken promises get more press). Likewise, members of Congress by and large do care what their constituents think, and are generally in it to serve the public (it's certainly not because it's a particularly easy job, or because of the pay).

The thing is, when the public doesn't care about something, the system that tells politicians what to do breaks down. The people who do vote and participate (e.g. by contacting their representative's office to argue for something that helps them) end up with disproportionate influence, and so Congress gets a skewed view of the world. When no one seems to care about something, members just do what they think is best; when something is important to their constituents, they're far more likely to go with what their constituents want. If their constituents want something that they think is not good, then they might follow their personal convictions, and at the end of their term the people decide whether or not it was the right thing to do. That's why the most important effect of the disclosures of US government secrets is that it's gotten people to generally care about it -- when people care, Congress listens. When people don't care, Congress listens to the people who do care about the issue, who aren't necessarily the ones they should be listening to.