On the 18th of September, the people of Scotland will have a once in a lifetime opportunity to vote in a referendum which could change the lives of every single person living in Scotland. The Independence Referendum is Scotland's opportunity to take the country into it's own hands and have total control over matters that most relate to the people of Scotland.

I have created this thread for members, mainly the British, to discuss and make points on whether they believe that Scotland should become an independent country. I will start off with my view.

When the idea of independence was first raised, I immediately became a no voter. This was a result of the Yes campaign simply not answering questions about currency, healthcare, pensions, national security, and education. It was not until recently that they answered these questions and we finally had answers. I am now in support of Scottish Independence and believe that we can create a stronger Scotland with a more prosperous future.

 

Please keep conversation civil.

Edited September 2, 201411 yr by TheScottishGamer

Personally, I don't believe that independence will be a very wise option for Scotland. Firstly, the pro-independence Alex Salmond seems to be dodging pertinent questions such as Scotland's future currency and economy. During the most recent televised debate, he was dodging the questions about the future currency and denies any relation to the Euro (Scotland CANNOT keep British Sterling if independent). A new currency would take time to integrate and cause difficulties for businesses and trade immediately

Secondly, a lot of large businesses in Scotland were known to be relocating to England/Wales as independence would break up the strongly united markets of the two countries and destabilize the Scottish economy, leaving it worse off. It would have to reintegrate its trade partnerships and relations with other countries. The UK trade would allow both countries to benefit from combined trading of resources, however Scotland's primary trade commodity is offshore Oil and Gas and as an independent country, will prosper less from trade.

Other issues such as security, the EU etc have been outlined by the Scottish government but they cannot be hidden and have to be acted on straight away. The EU alone would be problematic as Independent Scotland may have to negotiate new terms EU membership and may get a worse off deal.

 

Personally, I believe Scotland wouldn't cope under independence (I'm English BTW with Scottish family).

Edited September 2, 201411 yr by Shekure

For reference :) : I have always been an SNP supporter and support Independence fully. It is a no brainer for me really. My views below on some topics in the Independence debate:

 

We will make Scotland an even better country and it will prosper even more with independence. It really comes down to a few basic questions for those who don't know.

 

Would you rather have 3 parties who will always rotate in power, possibly a 4th now (UKIP :D), have policies decided for us by Westminster and not really have much control over our own country and policies or would you rather have decisions made by the people of Scotland and her own parliament in which the Scottish people have an elected Government that reflects their best interests and desires?

 

Some issues to really clear up: Not going to write an essay on every point but the main ones which are really a bit of common sense and thinking :S

 

1. We will be using the (£)Pound or (£)our own currency regardless of what happens because firstly, a currency union is logical for both parties to agree on and really would further cause suffering for the rest of what remained of the United Kingdom if the Westminster Government at that time refused.. They would not be that stupid (I hope for their sake) to allow such an effect to impact their own economy. Scotland is the United Kingdom's second biggest trading partner.

 

- Secondly there is no country in the world without a currency so as I said above, we will have one or the other, but really cannot see it not being the (£)Pound. Alister Darling and the No campaign have both already admitted that Scotland would be a successful country and be able to use the Pound in an Independent Scotland. The Pound is just as much of an asset to Scotland as it is to the rest of the United Kingdom. Business would not re-locate because you do realise it would cost them a fortune in itself to do so to go down South and move their Headquarters.

 

- If you take the issue of debt too, it is a liability of the United Kingdom, therefore if we leave the U.K and the U.K government did actually refuse the currency union to their own loss, then we would not have to accept any debt because it is not ours to pay, it is a liability belonging to them. So the No Campaign really cannot have it both ways saying we cannot have the pound even though that has been proven false now and saying we have to pay debt.

 

- Lastly this issue has been answered so many times now it is just propaganda to say we don't have any plans or backups in place for any preposterous outcomes.....

 

2. The Privatisation occurring down South is not scare mongering, while this is a new issue to the table, it IS infact happening already, look at our postal service, the same Government that caused that to happen are threatening our own N.H.S. Yes we have control over a lot of areas within our own Scottish N.H.S BUT, we do not have FULL control, budgets are affected by the decisions made in London.

Thus our service will suffer if we do not protect it by securing it via Independence because we would then have to adjust the budget either the current Scottish Government set out or whoever is in power next and possibly start following the decisions made down South because of a lack of power and influence that we currently have, restrained under this Union.

 

3. While everyone is entitled to their own views, I cannot understand those who have this idea that they would vote no simply because Alex Salmond and the SNP are at the fore front of the Yes Campaign. Who the heck else do you expect to secure us Independence and argue our case?

The SNP are really the only party, which shows through several elections and past grievances, that take the best decisions for Scotland or at least have the best interests in my view anyway, unlike all the U.K parties.

 

- Again, would you rather be ruled over and suffer from crazy policies like the bedroom tax which affect so many people, both old and young, to which many of our politicians (MSP's) voted no against but was imposed anyway because we have no control or influence over such decisions, thus our politicians couldn't do anything to reflect what WE wanted, OR make our own decisions.

OR,  implement our own policies which will make better use of our wealth and assets to reflect that of the people of Scotland's needs?

 

4. Defence: The Nuclear weapons, do we really need them? aimlessly wasting the tax payers money sitting in the Clyde? What would you rather do? Help fund Illegal wars and rebels who would kill innocent people or have a defence force and with all the extra money be able to re-allocate it towards building new hospitals, new schools, better pension schemes and so much more? We could afford to do it all. 

 

- In that sense, honestly speaking, nobody is going to attack or invade Scotland, no terrorist groups or so called extremists would set out to infiltrate people because frankly Scotland would have nothing to do with any of these illegal wars and suffering some have been put through and thus why would they have the need to take revenge or actions towards us?

 

- The Scottish Defence force would be set out and be able to defend an attack in terms of realistic evaluations in the 21st century. 

This is not 1970, the cold war, nor is it 1935 and World War 2. Germany does not want to for some reason rise up and come and march over Europe again, nor does Russia and Mr Putin, which astonishingly seems to be the main concerns for people over defence which is absolutely insane.

- As Patrick Harvey said " I find it pretty astonishing the suggestion (From the no campaign) that we should now be worried about Independence because Vladamir Putin's going to come for us once he is finished with his neighbours"

 

The REAL threat that we face these days is against terrorists and increasing criminal behaviour. Although if we got out of this Union which partially has caused so much turmoil and potential targeting in our land mass in the first place, then i suspect there would be a decrease in threats posed by so called "Terrorists". It is a massive topic tbh, people need to define terrorists and terrorism as it often gets confused and misused these days. So, let's re-invest the huge sum of money that we invest in the Trident Nuclear Weapons system, facilities etc and put it into things that really could be tackled, like the food banks, hospital health care, schools, education, councils and our Scotland we live in today. 

 

- The current Scottish forces would not be under any threat of jobs. The bases would remain operational and our single R.A.F base and others because there would be no reason to close it, even if trident moved to england. Bases will remain operational. The only thing that would change would be their purpose which would be that of an Operational Headquarters, others to be allocated to defence duties, not being sent to die in pointless, crazy wars which have no aim.

 

With a yes vote, it is the only way to secure everyone's future, young or old, regardless of your social position and political allegiances and not see our country and it's wealth squandered by untrustworthy Governments that have endless periods of rule.

Look at the Labour party or the Green party. Both have voters who would usually vote for them or have just traditionally done so and they have ended up forming a #GreenYes and #LabourYes groups to show that regardless, Independence clearly will make it better for their parties and lives in Scotland.

 

Finally let's not forget. People should really be asking what the result of a No vote would be because it definitely would not remain the same. What benefits do we have staying within the United Kingdom ? What extra powers will we get? 

 

Why have some power, when you can have it all to really get the maximum benefit out of the decisions you could then make?

Personally I feel all the so called risks of Independence and Independence itself, which many of them are not likely to happen to such a wealthy country like Scotland, outweight that of staying in the U.K and this so called Union.

 

THE SEVERAL SUCCESSIVE WESTMINSTER GOVERNMENTS, LABOUR, TORIES, LIBERALS, ALL OF THEM......HAVE HAD MORE THAN 50 YEARS TO MAKE OUR COUNTRY BETTER...

 

IF WE ARE BETTER TOGETHER, THEN WHY ARE WE NOT BETTER ALREADY?

IF THIS IS BETTER TOGETHER, THEN WHY ARE WE STILL HERE?

 

ONE THING ANYONE CAN AGREE ON, is that this decision will be one of the greatest turnouts in any Scottish vote/electorate and everybody should voice their opinion by voting, regardless of their decision.

 

#YesScotland #VotesYes #Indyref #September18th

Edited September 4, 201411 yr by Lt. A.Kouassi

Guess I'll have to change my avatar then.

It's not technically independence. The only reason that word has been used is to rally support for the referendum.

 

If Scotland votes 'Yes' then they will still receive a substantial amount of support from the English government including that of stabilising their economy, receiving 'aid' etc. The main reason, in my eyes that this has been called, is that Alex Salmond wants a guarantee that he will be re-elected for the next term and the ability to levy taxes more than 1% per £ in theory making the Scottish government many more billions than they currently do.

 

I'm totally unbiased to this referendum as I think the Scottish have every right to deny devolved power to the English, however, Scotland will not survive with the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. I remember reading somewhere that Scotland would become one of the most poverty-ridden countries in Europe if they gained 'Independence'.

 

Whatever your view may be, this should be very interesting and I look forward to the further debates on the topic.

Edited September 2, 201411 yr by Stripe

Personally, I don't believe that independence will be a very wise option for Scotland. Firstly, the pro-independence Alex Salmond seems to be dodging pertinent questions such as Scotland's future currency and economy. During the most recent televised debate, he was dodging the questions about the future currency and denies any relation to the Euro (Scotland CANNOT keep British Sterling if independent). A new currency would take time to integrate and cause difficulties for businesses and trade immediately

Secondly, a lot of large businesses in Scotland were known to be relocating to England/Wales as independence would break up the strongly united markets of the two countries and destabilize the Scottish economy, leaving it worse off. It would have to reintegrate its trade partnerships and relations with other countries. The UK trade would allow both countries to benefit from combined trading of resources, however Scotland's primary trade commodity is offshore Oil and Gas and as an independent country, will prosper less from trade.

Other issues such as security, the EU etc have been outlined by the Scottish government but they cannot be hidden and have to be acted on straight away. The EU alone would be problematic as Independent Scotland may have to negotiate new terms EU membership and may get a worse off deal.

 

Personally, I believe Scotland wouldn't cope under independence (I'm English BTW with Scottish family).

With regards to Scottish Currency, Scotland does already have its own Scottish pound and Alastair Darling has said during live TV debates that we can continue to use it.

 

The No Campaign are portraying Oil and Gas as a curse which will ruin Scotland's future. What they fail to mention is that we have 25% of Europe's wind and tidal energy and 10% of Europe's wave potential - all of which will replace oil and gas in the near future. Not to mention the £1,500 billion worth of oil and gas that we have left. An independent Scotland will have no problem in producing a wealthy economy with a £32 billion rural and island economy, a £10 billion tourism industry, £13 billion food and drink industry, and a further £38.3 billion in multiple other industries. If we go independent, we will be better well of than the rest of the UK - in the top 20 wealthiest countries in the world higher than the UK.

 

I don't want to be governed by a government which we did not vote for, a government which is pushing conscription through parliament, a government which will take free health care away, a government which decides to fund weapons of mass destruction before helps families out of poverty. 

Scotland would become one of the most poverty-ridden countries in Europe if they gained 'Independence'.

Pretty much above on oil. The No campaign use this and currency as their strong points to go on about and try to blind people and yet funnily enough they are not so strong now as it has worked against them because people are fed up hearing about it now knowing that we can have the pound and as Mr Swinney described, "Oil is an extra bonus for Scotland". We already have plenty of assets and wealth without Oil. It really is just an extra help.

 

You say the "English" Government. Surprisingly that it yet another reason why the Equality argument will not back the U.K.

 

I don't know how many times Great Britain or United Kingdom has been to referred to as England or English it is just unreal. If we gain Independence, the equality will most certainly be better as currently as it stands within "Britain" it is just getting worse and worse.

 

What would I rather have and do? Have a nuclear weapon that sits in the Clyde pointlessly wasting my money being funded on and supporting illegal wars, arms to rebels and helping those who would kill innocent civilians or would I rather see my money and my countries money put to better use for example,

 

Building 10 new hospitals, upgrading our current Infrastructure for example, motorways from dual carriageways to proper MOTORWAYS 3-4 lanes, better education support and the like, or better yet them all. Because that is the reality, we are a rich country and we can be even richer with controlling our own assets and making our own decisions, much more realistic and logical than what the Westminster Government currently are always doing. Squandering our wealth for their so called needs.

 

Like upgrading Heathrow airport, building high speed railway links and upgrades from main cities of England, upgrading internet infrastructure rather than elsewhere. That is the main issue within this Union. The Wealth of all countries in it combined still is not distributed across the U.K. It is a laughable joke as to what we are in today.

Edited September 2, 201411 yr by Lt. A.Kouassi

I hope everything goes well.

With regards to Scottish Currency, Scotland does already have its own Scottish pound and Alastair Darling has said during live TV debates that we can continue to use it.

 

The No Campaign are portraying Oil and Gas as a curse which will ruin Scotland's future. What they fail to mention is that we have 25% of Europe's wind and tidal energy and 10% of Europe's wave potential - all of which will replace oil and gas in the near future. Not to mention the £1,500 billion worth of oil and gas that we have left. An independent Scotland will have no problem in producing a wealthy economy with a £32 billion rural and island economy, a £10 billion tourism industry, £13 billion food and drink industry, and a further £38.3 billion in multiple other industries. If we go independent, we will be better well of than the rest of the UK - in the top 20 wealthiest countries in the world higher than the UK.

 

I don't want to be governed by a government which we did not vote for, a government which is pushing conscription through parliament, a government which will take free health care away, a government which decides to fund weapons of mass destruction before helps families out of poverty. 

 Firstly, the British government will not make the NHS a private healthcare service. The price of oil and gas is unreliable; recent years display a drop in the price of oil and gas. This commodity will not last forever (Price or amount). In the UK's budget, Scotland always spent more than their budget allocated. English tax payers had to pay for certain parts of the Scottish healthcare system and all of the Scottish education system's university fees in addition to our own. Additionally, the Scottish title of "Highest spenders per person" will vanish as the Scottish population will have to pay more taxes for the services they will now have to pay for. Without extra taxes, the English budget will be larger and therefore spending can increase. Besides, we also have to allocate a budget for Wales and Northern Ireland which means the budget must be stretched. There is nothing set in stone about the future currency either, it could rise or fall, that we must wait to see. 

Okay to answer all of that:

 

1. England have already started it so there is no argument that it hasn't started already and they won't do it.

 

2. Regardless of what the price of oil is or how many barrels we have, the fact remains. WE HAVE OIL, or we have Lots and Lots of Oil. It is an extra boost to our economy one way or another. Secondly we do not solely rely on our oil. Our economy is already healthy and with the extra money we would save by not assisting in pointless wars, illegal wars and funding a nuclear weapon and now upgraded ones which is such a waste of money, we could further thrive. Not to mention the fact that currently all our taxes generated goes to Westminster and they decide how much of our own money we get back. Eh, I think the people of Scotland want to see their money spent in their own country and not on constant projects in London and South of the Border. Same goes for OUR oil, Westminster continue to squander our wealth.

 

3. University tuition is free for Scottish students and it is rightfully so that others have to pay, specifically those South of the border because it is a matter of protecting places which could have been assigned to a fellow Scot. If we go independent firstly, we would not have to raise taxes because we would as above already have more than enough to fund things, secondly, we would not have to pay for English students in our universities because they already have to pay their own way for using our much preferred education facilities.

 

4. As the Yes campaign and myself and many others from the no campaign have admitted to, We will be using the (£)POUND. it has been answered so many times yet the only people who cannot understand that seems to be the no campaign. It is a lost point from them now. Overdone same with Oil. Both have been fully explored and answered to the satisfaction of the majority of people. We will have a currency union, it is just not logical nor desirable for the rest of what remained of the U.K nor Scotland to not have it. As explained in first post. Simple as that. Taxes are scaremongering yet again with raising because we could and can easily fund our services with all the extra money we would then save, have, and also manage fully.

"University tuition is free for Scottish students and it is rightfully so that others have to pay, specifically those South of the border"

Ok, saying that others should pay for university fees by means of tax is fine, however saying that English and Welsh tax payers should pay for Scottish students at university isn't acceptable. Scottish citizens should pay for their university students and vice versa.

 

Regardless of what the price of oil is or how many barrels we have, the fact remains. WE HAVE OIL, or we have Lots and Lots of Oil.

Having oil currently is one thing, but how do you get more? You have to keep a steady supply long term by expanding drilling or once it's gone, income will plummet as Scotland is relying too much on oil. Norway and Greenland are looking to expand drilling North which means you won't have a lot for long provided they expand their drilling operations.

In regards to that reference on Free Education. I am saying that in Scotland, it is currently and will remain free for our own students. In no way did I say the English and Welsh should pay for our education. Secondly, they do not pay currently for our education and thirdly, there is no need for us to pay fees :P We can afford to do so. What I am saying also is that current English students in our Universities within Scotland already have to pay their own fees and ways because it could have been a potential place. That is where I am saying they should continue to pay their own way and not have the Scottish tax payer paying for their education. They could have had it in England, but it has been proven that many students throughout the U.K prefer to go to Scottish universities because of the pricing and benefits that are given by them.

 

Firstly on Oil, Scotland does not rely on oil at all. Much more business, industry and ways we make our money and strengthen our economy. Again, Oil is just an extra asset and boost. Even if it ran out, we would still be a wealthy country so I do not see why this Oil argument is such a big issue. It is just scaremongering from the no campaign and misleading information. There have already been plans to expand the Oil industry because with the new technology, new oil fields and sites for drilling are being found. And it will continue to because only so much of the North has been actually tested and explored in that sense for oil :)

 

Hope that clears that up for you. Oil, Currency, Defence, The N.H.S. All of them are really backfiring points for the no campaign. They have all been answered, they have all clearly shown by people's reactions, have been discussed more than enough times, mostly brought up by the no campaign. And people are fed up hearing about these points :P

Less than 24 hours to go now.  The media frenzy is astonishing just now, what's everyone thinking?

I don't think Scotland will split. I think the "No" majority will remain just ahead and the undecided will panic and vote no. But we'll see, in just 24 hours...

Edited September 17, 201411 yr by Shekure

It will surely be interesting to see what happens, whatever the outcome.

All the economics and politics aside, its a very exciting time in Scotland.  I have to say that I have been really disappointed by the No campaign though - the constant, unwavering stream of negativity and pessimism from them is tiring and insulting - you have to wonder whether many of them actually want Scotland to stay within the UK.  

 

 

Some might find this interesting and funny: 

 

 

The "No" campaign does seem a bit... dull to be honest. 

To be fair, it's often hard to make interesting arguments for the status quo.

If the referendum fails, does it mean they're done with independence talk for the forseeable future, or does it mean they'll just try again in like 10 years?

To be fair, it's often hard to make interesting arguments for the status quo.

If the referendum fails, does it mean they're done with independence talk for the forseeable future, or does it mean they'll just try again in like 10 years?

 

I don't think anyone actually knows.  I would doubt though that the opportunity would come around again for quite some time.

...And it's pretty much definitely No, with like a 10-point margin (and really high turnout).

Update: Looks like No's clinched it - it is mathematically impossible for Yes to win. It's official: the UK is staying together.