13 minutes ago, S.Bekowski said:

You're right, people are wanting guns back in the UK because they relied on the Government to protect them but they are failing and taking away more freedoms

  I am not trying to argue, I was just pointing out that the removal of guns from a population does absolutely nothing to deter crime and make people safer.  The issue at hand is violent crime and not just gun crime (which I don't like to separate because it try's to make a different violent crime somehow seem less violent). 

 

2 minutes ago, Hystery said:

 

And I've seen 3 red cars on the road today, therefore all cars must be red.

 

But now that you're starting to throw some random 3rd Reich stuff that's completely unrelated I'll assume you're just a troll and move on. Ben's already having a handful.

Granted the 3rd Reich thing may not be something that I should mention but I've been there, I've read and watched what Tommy Robinson has published and it mixes with what I heard while I was there. I unlike some people here do research and bring up events and what could counter or improve situations. It's not the guns killing people its people that arent right in the head that hurt people.

7 minutes ago, Ben said:

 

Now let's break down what you just said.

You quoted statistics of gun crime in America, you presented one city with no murder and 100% gun ownership, I acknowledged that, yet there are many variables that contribute to that. You continously compare America to the United Kingdom, and you can bring up as many statistics from America as you want, but we banned guns because of mass-shootings in schools, there hasn't been one since, that within itself is proof that gun control saves lives.

Now onto police wanting guns - through surveys within the police and the public, it is known that on the large part they do not want to be armed, and of those that do, the majority only want to be armed when necessary and are opposed to routinely being armed on patrol.

People here don't want their guns back, and the public still majorly backs the banning and limiting of firearms, so no, they really don't want their guns back, so please stop making it up.

I don't care about the average citizen? I am an average citizen and shown by the fact that the majority of this country democratically chose that we do not want to own or have the ability to own weapons, you are once again wrong.

 

You cannot force police officers to carry guns, and you cannot overrule the democratic decision of the people, that is how it works, this isn't just my opinion, this is the opinion of the majority, so stop trying to make out as if I am the Prime Minister and I am trying to get people killed, it just detracts from any of the points you do have.

Back onto it, I am an average citizen once again and I agree with the other majority of 'average citizens' who still believe that gun ownership should be limited if not banned.  The government has constant security because political figures are more likely to be attacked, that is just simple logic, nothing to do with treating people as second-class citizens, because under that logic unless there was a cop providing personal security for every citizen in the UK, someone would be a second-class citizen.

I don't want to force your Police to have guns. I'm saying that for the betterment of the people living in the UK that your Law Enforcement should be armed, allow citizens to legally purchase firearms that go through intensive background checks. because truly the people being hurt through terrorist attacks are the people not your government. Im not trying to be a troll but I'm saying this because I care for the well being of your people I could care less about the government, the people are important, not once have I said that the gov shouldnt get armed police but the people dont deserve to wait a longer period of time to get an armed officer, that is not fair. Im not saying every citizen gets a cop. no but the fastest responding officer wont be an armed one and an armed one can end a bad situation. I will say this again, its proven time and again that Violent Crime, Violent Crime, Violent Crime, not saying gun crime...Violent Crime will drop significantly if the populace is legally armed. not my duty to explain how to implement it, dont ask me how too, it is just a proven fact. Gun crime is very low, sure, but without a doubt violent crime has been raising up and thats what anti gun journalists dont tell you. say gun crime is down but dont show the violent crime stat that shoots up. and I've given you real life reasons why legally arming the populace can save lives.

I mean look at it this way, sure cant use a gun, but now I can use a knife, knives getting banned? well I can find other means. Its not the tools, its the people. 
Not trying to upset you by saying you dont seem to care about the average citizen but after giving you all these facts that show your belief or reason isnt totally accurate I began to think you truely didnt care. 

15 minutes ago, ToeBius said:

  I am not trying to argue, I was just pointing out that the removal of guns from a population does absolutely nothing to deter crime and make people safer.  The issue at hand is violent crime and not just gun crime (which I don't like to separate because it try's to make a different violent crime somehow seem less violent). 

 

It's true, some people dont seem to see that guns actually prevent violent crime. like if a guy wanted to rob a store and saw the cashier with a gun, or customer with a gun, he wouldn't rob the store.

13 minutes ago, S.Bekowski said:

Granted the 3rd Reich thing may not be something that I should mention but I've been there, I've read and watched what Tommy Robinson has published and it mixes with what I heard while I was there. I unlike some people here do research and bring up events and what could counter or improve situations. It's not the guns killing people its people that arent right in the head that hurt people.

I don't want to force your Police to have guns. I'm saying that for the betterment of the people living in the UK that your Law Enforcement should be armed, allow citizens to legally purchase firearms that go through intensive background checks. because truly the people being hurt through terrorist attacks are the people not your government. Im not trying to be a troll but I'm saying this because I care for the well being of your people I could care less about the government, the people are important, not once have I said that the gov shouldnt get armed police but the people dont deserve to wait a longer period of time to get an armed officer, that is not fair. Im not saying every citizen gets a cop. no but the fastest responding officer wont be an armed one and an armed one can end a bad situation. I will say this again, its proven time and again that Violent Crime, Violent Crime, Violent Crime, not saying gun crime...Violent Crime will drop significantly if the populace is legally armed. not my duty to explain how to implement it, dont ask me how too, it is just a proven fact. Gun crime is very low, sure, but without a doubt violent crime has been raising up and thats what anti gun journalists dont tell you. say gun crime is down but dont show the violent crime stat that shoots up. and I've given you real life reasons why legally arming the populace can save lives.

I mean look at it this way, sure cant use a gun, but now I can use a knife, knives getting banned? well I can find other means. Its not the tools, its the people. 
Not trying to upset you by saying you dont seem to care about the average citizen but after giving you all these facts that show your belief or reason isnt totally accurate I began to think you truely didnt care. 

It hasn't been proven time and time again - this article goes to show that sinces 1997 academic studies have contiously countered each other on whether or not having a populace that is legally armed reduces violent crimes, so nobody actually has an answer, so it would be stupid to take action when none of the studies in the past two decades have ever agreed with each other.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/right-to-carry-gun-violence/531297/

 

I'm sure the study which is referenced within that post will be debunked soon, and then someone will debunk the debunk and we'll end up in a loop until someone provides a study that people agree with.

Of course violent crime is going to still be a thing after guns are banned, but it's easier to kill someone with a gun than a knife, I can likely outrun someone with a knife, or fight and attempt at disarming them, but with a gun before I make a move to do either, I am likely already shot.

1 minute ago, Ben said:

It hasn't been proven time and time again - this article goes to show that sinces 1997 academic studies have contiously countered each other on whether or not having a populace that is legally armed reduces violent crimes, so nobody actually has an answer, so it would be stupid to take action when none of the studies in the past two decades have ever agreed with each other.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/right-to-carry-gun-violence/531297/

 

I'm sure the study which is referenced within that post will be debunked soon, and then someone will debunk the debunk and we'll end up in a loop until someone provides a study that people agree with.

Of course violent crime is going to still be a thing after guns are banned, but it's easier to kill someone with a gun than a knife, I can likely outrun someone with a knife, or fight and attempt at disarming them, but with a gun before I make a move to do either, I am likely already shot.

Ok well it's shown to work in the US and is shown to work in Poland because they allow it, in Poland you can own an automatic weapon and no mass shootings.

1 minute ago, S.Bekowski said:

Ok well it's shown to work in the US and is shown to work in Poland because they allow it, in Poland you can own an automatic weapon and no mass shootings.

Poland has some of the strictist gun laws in Europe, they are far more stricter than the gun ownership laws in the United Kingdom.

Gun ownership per 100:
United Kingdom: 3.79
Poland: 1.49

It also, based on the lower gun ownership rate has a lower Total Number of Gun Deaths.

 

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/poland
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom

 

So your evidence proving that it works in Poland is incorrect, because Polish people are more restricted in access to firearms and also cannot purchase automatic firearms:
"In Poland, civilians are not allowed to possess automatic firearms, firearms disguised as other objects, and armour-piercing, incendiary and expanding ammunition78 79"

9 minutes ago, Ben said:

Of course violent crime is going to still be a thing after guns are banned, but it's easier to kill someone with a gun than a knife, I can likely outrun someone with a knife, or fight and attempt at disarming them, but with a gun before I make a move to do either, I am likely already shot.

  If you encounter someone with a knife, you leave.  You don't try to fight or disarm them, especially if you don't have training to help you out.  A knife is just as deadly as a gun, and usually when you know that someone has a knife to you, its too late.  The human body does not like objects to be forced into it, and it doesn't matter if its a bullet or a knife.   

6 minutes ago, Ben said:

Poland has some of the strictist gun laws in Europe, they are far more stricter than the gun ownership laws in the United Kingdom.

Gun ownership per 100:
United Kingdom: 3.79
Poland: 1.49

It also, based on the lower gun ownership rate has a lower Total Number of Gun Deaths.

 

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/poland
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom

 

So your evidence proving that it works in Poland is incorrect, because Polish people are more restricted in access to firearms and also cannot purchase automatic firearms:
"In Poland, civilians are not allowed to possess automatic firearms, firearms disguised as other objects, and armour-piercing, incendiary and expanding ammunition78 79"

Not sure because I've seen civilians being trained by the military and at their homes one had an H&K416 and the other a M4A1 which are both automatic and went to training and they weren't military or Law Enforcement. should also add the country also offers training for the populace and pay them? 

2 hours ago, S.Bekowski said:

Not sure because I've seen civilians being trained by the military and at their homes one had an H&K416 and the other a M4A1 which are both automatic and went to training and they weren't military or Law Enforcement. should also add the country also offers training for the populace and pay them? 

 

I want you to show me a source that says that Poland offers free gun training for the population. 

4 minutes ago, TheSandwichStealer said:

 

I want you to show me a source that says that Poland offers free gun training for the population. 

http://www.visegradgroup.eu/polish-paramilitaries

look up Paramilitaries in Poland, they are supported by the Government and have the population ready in case of an Invasion and they can defend themselves.

5 minutes ago, S.Bekowski said:

http://www.visegradgroup.eu/polish-paramilitaries

look up Paramilitaries in Poland, they are supported by the Government and have the population ready in case of an Invasion and they can defend themselves.

 

Okay? This is a professional military group, I don't get why we should be arming the population. What are you trying to get at here?

As a side note, I am always impressed of people who apply ways and traditions of one country to a completely different country. It's like "hey, it works for the USA to have several hundreds independent police agencies, no uniform criminal procedure code and vast officer's discretion, so you have to adopt that system too".

 

On the posted video, well, there's no place for a roadside traffic court, because the officer's only job is to issue a ticket and you can argue it later, and there's no place for constitutional disputes in the midst of a heated protest, because cops have to prevent a fight. He wasn't arrested, just moved. IMO public order and public safety in this particular instance prevails other the right to throw verbal and literal shit at each other.

 

I'd just like to point out that owning a firearm is not illegal in the UK. They have never been banned.

 

They are heavily restricted and regulated. You can apply for a license from your local police force to buy and keep firearms which is valid for five years.

 

You need a "good reason" to own one, to provide two character referees, disclose all relevant physical and mental health conditions (verified by police contacting your doctors for the past ten years), disclose all unspent and spent convictions and offences, inspection of the firearm(s) and storage premises, and an interview.

 

5% of our police are armed and only needed to discharge their weapons ten times[2017 stats]. Depending on the force, 5-50%+ of officers are Taser trained.

 

Personally, I am fine with there being more Taser trained police and more AFOs, SFOs & CTSFOs, as long as they remain as highly trained as they are now. Not given a gun after an inadequate period of training like most of the US.

Right wingers: "Liberals love to play the victim....victim mentality!"

Also right wingers: "Conservatism is under attack! Persecution of white people! Demonetization of straight white males! What about men's rights?  Christianity is under attack!"

 

The people that hold the most power, both politically and culturally, whining about being the victims. Pathetic.

 

15 hours ago, TheSandwichStealer said:

 

Okay? This is a professional military group, I don't get why we should be arming the population. What are you trying to get at here?

Well yeah but they aren't apart of the military, they are a militia. The Polish Government is paying these groups to provide the civilian populace with equipment, weapons and military training free of charge, the civilians are also paid approx 150-200$ a month for doing it on weekends. This is for the whole population to be familiar with how weapons work, how to use them and handle them safely, and in a time of crisis can either assist military operations or defend their homes. That is its sole purpose. Also you asked for proof and I showed you proof that they offer it. The population is armed and with automatic weapons and no mass shootings with people that own them legally occur because they wont allow you to own one if you are mentally unstable or have a criminal history. The reason I bring it up is that Ben respectfully brought up the argument that it couldn't work in the UK due to culture differences. and I showed that Poland and the US have a similar system and it works yet they are on different sides of the world and the only similarities between these countries is that they believe in freedom of speech, freedom of choice, self defense, protecting the citizens of the country and helping those outside it, and the people control the government not the other way around. These are similarities that are shared among other nations im sure and we can agree on. my point is that if these weapons are put in the hands of the good it will deter the evil because good will always conquer over evil.

7 hours ago, Sniper296 said:

I'd just like to point out that owning a firearm is not illegal in the UK. They have never been banned.

 

They are heavily restricted and regulated. You can apply for a license from your local police force to buy and keep firearms which is valid for five years.

 

You need a "good reason" to own one, to provide two character referees, disclose all relevant physical and mental health conditions (verified by police contacting your doctors for the past ten years), disclose all unspent and spent convictions and offences, inspection of the firearm(s) and storage premises, and an interview.

 

5% of our police are armed and only needed to discharge their weapons ten times[2017 stats]. Depending on the force, 5-50%+ of officers are Taser trained.

 

Personally, I am fine with there being more Taser trained police and more AFOs, SFOs & CTSFOs, as long as they remain as highly trained as they are now. Not given a gun after an inadequate period of training like most of the US.

Well the unfortunate reality is that tasers work 50% of the time, they are fantastic and every LEO should be equipped with one along with OC spray and a ASP Baton. but times are changing and people are finding new ways to try and kill police officers, and while higher ups sit safely in their offices while the patrol officers have only those is incredibly dangerous. I heard the argument that one reason why they dont have guns is because they dont want the family of that person to be upset they lost a loved one. I can agree there but If it were me and this person with a weapon charges at me with the intention to kill me and holds no value of life towards me and I have to try and use my taser (one shot only and they work 50% of the time) why my life is less valued because he then could kill me and my family will suffer while the person who killed me will think nothing of it. Honestly that doesnt seem fair. not to those officers or their families, because they want to go home too. That person has made their choice and it is intended to kill somebody yet I have to try and stop them, if backup is there great but if im alone I might not come back to my family. These are real life situations that can occur, I'm suggesting methods that could save an LEOs life and return to his or her family at the end of a shift. 

3 hours ago, Riley24 said:

Right wingers: "Liberals love to play the victim....victim mentality!"

Also right wingers: "Conservatism is under attack! Persecution of white people! Demonetization of straight white males! What about men's rights?  Christianity is under attack!"

 

The people that hold the most power, both politically and culturally, whining about being the victims. Pathetic.

 

don't see how it's related since politics haven't been brought up? unless you mean the video itself and you're replying to that then apologies.

Edited July 20, 20187 yr by S.Bekowski

1 hour ago, S.Bekowski said:

Well yeah but they aren't apart of the military, they are a militia. The Polish Government is paying these groups to provide the civilian populace with equipment, weapons and military training free of charge, the civilians are also paid approx 150-200$ a month for doing it on weekends. This is for the whole population to be familiar with how weapons work, how to use them and handle them safely, and in a time of crisis can either assist military operations or defend their homes. That is its sole purpose. Also you asked for proof and I showed you proof that they offer it. The population is armed and with automatic weapons and no mass shootings with people that own them legally occur because they wont allow you to own one if you are mentally unstable or have a criminal history. The reason I bring it up is that Ben respectfully brought up the argument that it couldn't work in the UK due to culture differences. and I showed that Poland and the US have a similar system and it works yet they are on different sides of the world and the only similarities between these countries is that they believe in freedom of speech, freedom of choice, self defense, protecting the citizens of the country and helping those outside it, and the people control the government not the other way around. These are similarities that are shared among other nations im sure and we can agree on. my point is that if these weapons are put in the hands of the good it will deter the evil because good will always conquer over evil.

Well the unfortunate reality is that tasers work 50% of the time, they are fantastic and every LEO should be equipped with one along with OC spray and a ASP Baton. but times are changing and people are finding new ways to try and kill police officers, and while higher ups sit safely in their offices while the patrol officers have only those is incredibly dangerous. I heard the argument that one reason why they dont have guns is because they dont want the family of that person to be upset they lost a loved one. I can agree there but If it were me and this person with a weapon charges at me with the intention to kill me and holds no value of life towards me and I have to try and use my taser (one shot only and they work 50% of the time) why my life is less valued because he then could kill me and my family will suffer while the person who killed me will think nothing of it. Honestly that doesnt seem fair. not to those officers or their families, because they want to go home too. That person has made their choice and it is intended to kill somebody yet I have to try and stop them, if backup is there great but if im alone I might not come back to my family. These are real life situations that can occur, I'm suggesting methods that could save an LEOs life and return to his or her family at the end of a shift. 

You really haven't proven anything about it working in Poland, they are trained by the military because they form the 'Territorial Defence Force' - they are a militia which opperates as a reserve force in the event of an invasion by Russia, they are reserve military personal, they are funded by the government and are given weapons and anti-tank weapons and training, this is similar to the British Army Reserves here in the United Kingdom who used to be referred to as a the Territorial Army.

So, the people who get paid are volunteer members of the Polish defences forces, they are directly under the command of the Polish Ministry of Defence who pay to equip them, they are not average civilians who get to keep guns in their home.

The fact still remains, Poland has tighter gun laws than the United Kingdom a lower gun ownership and a lower gun-related homicide rate, no normal civilians who are not part of the military of reseve defence forces get training in weapons, so you really haven't proven that it can work over here.

1 minute ago, Ben said:

You really haven't proven anything about it working in Poland, they are trained by the military because they form the 'Territorial Defence Force' - they are a militia which opperates as a reserve force in the event of an invasion by Russia, they are reserve military personal, they are funded by the government and are given weapons and anti-tank weapons and training, this is similar to the British Army Reserves here in the United Kingdom who used to be referred to as a the Territorial Army.

So, the people who get paid are volunteer members of the Polish defences forces, they are directly under the commant of the Polish Ministry of Defence who pay to equip them, they are not average civilians who get to keep guns in their home.

The fact still remains, Poland has tighter gun laws than the United Kingdom a lower gun ownership and a lower gun-related homicide rate, no normal civilians who are not part of the military of reseve defence forces get training in weapons, so you really haven't proven that it can work over here.

Well yes the Territorial Defense exists they are essentially the National Guard or Reserve Military like you said BUT there are also Paramilitary groups in Poland that are funded by the Government to train civilians. As of recently they've been more promoted and they are for people not looking to join the armed forces but be capable in a time of war and are capable of defending themselves. Law Enforcement is especially effective because they have the same attitude as American Law Enforcement, if you have the whole intention to kill me I will put you down. Hell even GROM Polish Special Forces train certain Law Enforcement Agencies. And the Gun ownership stat is incorrect most families in Poland carry a firearm and dont say they do, they are especially more common in the country because you cannot always rely on Law Enforcement to help you if somebody is threatening to kill you or your family. 

Just now, S.Bekowski said:

Well yes the Territorial Defense exists they are essentially the National Guard or Reserve Military like you said BUT there are also Paramilitary groups in Poland that are funded by the Government to train civilians. As of recently they've been more promoted and they are for people not looking to join the armed forces but be capable in a time of war and are capable of defending themselves. Law Enforcement is especially effective because they have the same attitude as American Law Enforcement, if you have the whole intention to kill me I will put you down. Hell even GROM Polish Special Forces train certain Law Enforcement Agencies. And the Gun ownership stat is incorrect most families in Poland carry a firearm and dont say they do, they are especially more common in the country because you cannot always rely on Law Enforcement to help you if somebody is threatening to kill you or your family. 

Firstly, the Territorial Defense is the paramilitary groups you speak of, they are literally categorised on the Wikipedia page as a 'militia', I have tried looking for alternative militias that are not within this force and I cannot find them. Secondly, have you got any proof that every family has a gun in Poland, because from the site I presented, it states that the per 100 ownership of guns in Poland is 2.50, the overall amount of firearms in Poland is ' 2017: 968,000¹ ', so saying that the population of Poland is 37 million, either you are severely incorrect, or Polish families are very large.

10 minutes ago, Ben said:

Firstly, the Territorial Defense is the paramilitary groups you speak of, they are literally categorised on the Wikipedia page as a 'militia', I have tried looking for alternative militias that are not within this force and I cannot find them. Secondly, have you got any proof that every family has a gun in Poland, because from the site I presented, it states that the per 100 ownership of guns in Poland is 2.50, the overall amount of firearms in Poland is ' 2017: 968,000¹ ', so saying that the population of Poland is 37 million, either you are severely incorrect, or Polish families are very large.

One thing you need to understand that this country has been through many wars, it has been oppressed and almost wiped off the face of the map completely something you would not understand since this country sacrificed itself to save yours essentially and got the boot thanks to your government. this country was flooded with guns from foreign invaders and people took them, after all these wars a majority of weapons weren't accounted for, where did they go? My Uncle works for a Federal Law Enforcement Agency there and he told me that these stats are false, many people dont want to say they own these weapons or hid them because they fear they may be put on a list and they will be taken away. A friends family member that is a retired police officer has a Browning HP handgun that isnt registered for the same reason and keeps it hidden. The Territorial Defense is a reservist group the US National Guard is Considered a Militia doesn't mean every paramilitary group is associated to it, they are groups of either military veterans, or law enforcement that offer training to the civilian populace and will defend the country if an invasion occurs. For instance look up the AZBR in the US its the same thing in Poland.

Edit: The Previous Government in Poland (Liberal Party) was against training civilians from these paramilitary groups, calling them white supremacists, and Christian Extremists. Which was completely incorrect, many of these groups are christian but then again almost the entire country is such as the rest of europe. these groups offered training to civilians in case of a tyrannical government or a Russian Invasion

Edited July 20, 20187 yr by S.Bekowski

Just now, S.Bekowski said:

One thing you need to understand that this country has been through many wars, it has been oppressed and almost wiped off the face of the map completely something you would not understand since this country sacrificed itself to save yours essentially and got the boot thanks to your government. this country was flooded with guns from foreign invaders and people took them, after all these wars a majority of weapons weren't accounted for, where did they go? My Uncle works for a Federal Law Enforcement Agency there and he told me that these stats are false, many people dont want to say they own these weapons or hid them because they fear they may be put on a list and they will be taken away. A friends family member that is a retired police officer has a Browning HP handgun that isnt registered for the same reason and keeps it hidden. The Territorial Defense is a reservist group the US National Guard is Considered a Militia doesn't mean every paramilitary group is associated to it, they are groups of either military veterans, or law enforcement that offer training to the civilian populace and will defend the country if an invasion occurs. For instance look up the AZBR in the US its the same thing in Poland.

I really don't get what your point is anymore. Firstly, let's not break down what was the most complicated war in the history of the world down to my country giving Poland the boot, saying that my government gave the boot to a country that we couldn't access during the beginning of a war with the largest army in the history of the world is just an arrogant view on things.

I once again ask for evidence of these militias, when I google around for Polish paramilitary groups all I can find is that Paramilitary groups are part of the defence force, you have presented nothing to prove otherwise. Yesterday you wanted me to know you understood what officers in the United Kingdom wanted when it came to being armed, because you spoke to them when you visited the United Kingdom, even though there was evidence available towards the contrary on the internet

 

Now you want me to disregard all evidence on the internet regarding the strict nature of Polands gun laws because your uncle may or may not work for the Federal Law Enforcement Agency in Poland which is actually known as the Polijca (translates to Police) which is a National Police Force and the primary Law Enforcement agency, yet he knows more than the years of journalists who have reviewed this matter and the government who put out statistics on it, right. I'm sure next you'll want to try and sell me a bridge.