39 minutes ago, LMS said:

 

@Ben: I'm not sure if military spending is a good example here, as there is no such thing as a European Army so it's hard to say Britain did it to secure EU countries. It might have done so for NATO countries, but that's a different story. Then again, if one follows your thought and argues that since the UK spends more money protecting EU countries, wouldn't be the logical consequence working on establishing an european force to evenly make everyone pay for it? How does it help if the UK goes back into a "locked-down" state, where it still has to pay all the military stuff? I don't think it should always be about the benefits of yourself, but about progressing as a whole, in this case as Europeans. And everyone has to make a sacrifice or two for that.

The EU Army is a real thing. It was debated in Europarl last year. 

Whether you like Farage or not, this was one of his best rants 

Edited June 27, 20169 yr by officerAMR

2 hours ago, LMS said:

I mean, let's be real, "the same country", what does it mean at the end of the day? One could have drawn the border on the map 100 km to the east and then you would accept the result of those people there because magically they are now in your country?

Yes. Because at least those people would LIVE in that area and would know better what is good for that area. People from Spain, Italy, or UK are voting bills that will be applied to France, even though they've no idea how it works, or how is the life here. It simply doesn't make sense. That's the problem with the EU as it is at the moment.

On 27.6.2016 at 6:11 PM, Albo1125 said:

The EU's bureaucrats, that impose ridiculous rulings (things like 'The right to be removed from Google', Google' supposedly exploiting their dominant position by putting their own services on their website), have definitely had their eyes opened - action must be taken to restore EU citizens' trust.

I think this is the main problem with the EU. It became a huge bureaucratic untransparent bubble, with a few politicians telling all 28 countrys what is right or what is wrong. And with people like Juncker and Schulz I highly doubt that there will be some sort of a reformation in the near future.

In 1999 during the election campaign for the "Bundestag", the CDU was asked the following question concerning the EU: "Does Germany have to pay for the debt of other countrys?". The answer given was a "clear NO".
Now, 17 years later, think of greece and other countrys. Think of the people earning money day by day and seeing the taxes being spent in hopefully lost countrys like greece. Thinks of Draghi and his policy of low interest rates. Think of his idea of flooding the market with money.... and so on. The list of doubtful and impetuous decisions by the EU and it related institutions is long and get longer day by day. These decisions are mostly made by politicians and representatives not being directly elected by the people. Who would trust in such an institution?

Edited June 29, 20169 yr by Jety2011
orthographic mistakes

To be perfectly honest, I view most of the Leave outcry and social media tantrums as the far-left student demographic getting a massive kick in the face for not getting their way for once, no matter how many placards they wave or faux-intellectual Facebook posts they post. Most if not all the Leave votes were from people with perfectly reasonable issues with the current status quo, such as the fact that our public services and housing cannot cope with many more people due to chronic under-funding and mismanagement (hospital waiting areas are stuffed to the brim, and you'd be lucky to see a foot patrolling police officer around my area). In addition, due to the EU's trading mandate, currently the UK limits trade to non-EU countries- if we do leave, countries such as China, Commonwealth countries and the US will line up to sign new trade agreements. Plus, the economic shock brought on by the Brexit will only be a short term thing; currently the pound is recovering to healthier levels and is nowhere near the lows of 2008. The EU started off with good intentions, as a means of trade between neighbor states, but it's slowly evolved into a practical dictatorship with unelected leaders and ridiculous laws that in practice can't work everywhere for every member state. For this reason, leaving the EU for more autonomy in our affairs seems like it could work in the long term; we don't have to fully pull out and still have some of the membership benefits in addition to expanded trade, but no one really knows what will happen once we formally leave, making the whole exercise a risky step in the short term.

I have to say though, having Boris Johnson as PM would make BBC Parliament a lot more entertaining to watch, it would be like a four-hour long improvised standup comedy.

1 hour ago, wilfordbrimleysmoustache said:

To be perfectly honest, I view most of the Leave outcry and social media tantrums as the far-left student demographic getting a massive kick in the face for not getting their way for once, no matter how many placards they wave or faux-intellectual Facebook posts they post.

Just so you know, I'm putting myself on the far-left political spectrum, and I'm still against the EU as it is at the moment. The EU and how it works are things that are disputed across all political cleavages. You can be on the left and be against the EU, just like you can agree with it, the same on the right. Don't be so stereotypical in your judgements. 

Now I do like all those petitions for another referendum. It reminds me of an old Russian saying, 'the democracy is what the people say; if the people say things we don't like, let the people say again'. 

But sometimes I feel like the world is going back to isolated nations and the history (not Hystery :P) makes a turn around instead of going forward. (that's my inner socialist speaking apparently)

Its odd that the west fought the USSR just to restablish it. First a EU army, then Merkel saying that She's going to stop anyone else from "fleeing". 

Now those leaked documents by Poland seems to echo the USSR's style of control from a central nation, that nation being Germany. 

Her and the EU"s true colours have been shown.

I've been saying since a while that the EU turned into the 4th Reich with Germany behind the controls, forcing their social and economic model to everyone, like Greece. And ending ruining the injured countries even more than anything else.

On 29/06/2016 at 10:30 AM, Jety2011 said:

In 1999 during the election campaign for the "Bundestag", the CDU was asked the following question concerning the EU: "Does Germany have to pay for the debt of other countrys?". The answer given was a "clear NO".

You know, this always makes me laugh, because germans are pretty quick to forget that, at the end of WWII (1947 to be exact), countries agreed to cancel Germany's debt to help it build a strong economy again after the war. So, when german people vote 'no' to that kind of things, it's slightly, if not A LOT hypocritical and ingrate.

A world economy that can be thrown into turmoil by a simple referendum does not seem like a very stable world economy. 

Also, there was a certain degree of racism and xenophobia that lead to results of the vote. Its a pretty scary direction the whole western world seems to be heading in.

Edited June 30, 20169 yr by Riley24

19 hours ago, Hystery said:

I've been saying since a while that the EU turned into the 4th Reich with Germany behind the controls, forcing their social and economic model to everyone, like Greece. And ending ruining the injured countries even more than anything else.

You know, this always makes me laugh, because germans are pretty quick to forget that, at the end of WWII (1947 to be exact), countries agreed to cancel Germany's debt to help it build a strong economy again after the war. So, when german people vote 'no' to that kind of things, it's slightly, if not A LOT hypocritical and ingrate.

Most of the people nowdays in germany have nothing to do with the 3rd Reich but always held responsible for. I don't want to offend you, but it is rediculous to compare the greece and the EU situation nowdays with the situation after WW2.

It would be really interesting to ask the question in france: "Do you want to pay for the debt of other countrys?" Seeing your statement above, I have no doubt that the people in france will give a clear "Yes, for sure!" ;-)

3 hours ago, Jety2011 said:

Most of the people nowdays in germany have nothing to do with the 3rd Reich but always held responsible for. I don't want to offend you, but it is rediculous to compare the greece and the EU situation nowdays with the situation after WW2.

It would be really interesting to ask the question in france: "Do you want to pay for the debt of other countrys?" Seeing your statement above, I have no doubt that the people in france will give a clear "Yes, for sure!" ;-)

I don't hold the people of Germany responsible today, but I have to admit they are not very grateful for all the gifts we offered them during all those years and are not very keen to be as kind as other countries were to them. Also, I believe I've seen somewhere that if France had to pay what Greece owes them, it would cost at most ~150 euros per citizen. Not that much, for the relieve of an entire country, and from my several trips to the land of baguettes, I can say they are very generous! 

Edited July 1, 20169 yr by ScarletDraconis

Personally, I think the vote to leave the EU was a good call, the British people made their own history that day and it creates a great opportunity for Britain to retake their country back. As someone who resides in a country that is not in the EU (Canada), I've been following the EU closely for the past few years. The EU to me seems very toxic and seems to have been getting a lot less "democratic" over time. The idea that a power like that has control of whatever a country can and can't do is a scary and unreasonable idea. A lot of different countries and political parties have come out and said that the main reason for the leave of the EU is because of immigration, and honestly, that is a perfectly reasonable reason to leave. The UK has been shoveled loads upon loads of immigrants, which again, is dictated by the EU it seems. With how everything is turning into a politically correct monsoon, it's now frowned upon to want your country to be your country and no one else's. 

 

Like the Hungarian Prime Minster said, "the ideal number of migrants entering Hungary is zero"  when he congratulated the Brexit vote and the British people. Let's be honest, I think a lot of people are fed up with all of these immigrants entering the country and receiving free health care, money, their schooling paid for, housing, food, etc. People are freaking out thinking this limits the UK's trade power too, but the UK isn't going to have any problems trading with whomever they want, especially so now that the EU does not dictate who the UK trades with. The UK will always have Canada as a trade partner, and I don't see the U.S all of a sudden abandoning that deal either. If anything this will strengthen relationships even more. 

Sad day for Europe.

 

The English youth should get a new referendum and decide once again, as many young people want to stay in the EU.
Also I've heard that Scotland and N.I want a referendum to leave Great Britain (Scotland once again, but this time it seems that they finally will).

It's been a bad decision for all the "British" people and I don't see why anyone would want to leave a community like this.

Well yes, to be honest the EU requires a lot of work, that's for sure. I am absolutely not happy with it in its current state but I am very sure, that one day it will flourish to something great and it will work out for our European brothers. The most important thing is the change of the leading heads, which is not only in EU itself, but also in Germany and other states.

Maybe one day, we will truly have a United States of Europe, without losing the sovereignity of every independent state. What I mean is that in international (or better intercontiental) relationships, we occur as the USE.


My opinion.

5 hours ago, Sn0wf4ll said:

Sad day for Europe.

 

The English youth should get a new referendum and decide once again, as many young people want to stay in the EU.
Also I've heard that Scotland and N.I want a referendum to leave Great Britain (Scotland once again, but this time it seems that they finally will).

It's been a bad decision for all the "British" people and I don't see why anyone would want to leave a community like this.

Well yes, to be honest the EU requires a lot of work, that's for sure. I am absolutely not happy with it in its current state but I am very sure, that one day it will flourish to something great and it will work out for our European brothers. The most important thing is the change of the leading heads, which is not only in EU itself, but also in Germany and other states.

Maybe one day, we will truly have a United States of Europe, without losing the sovereignity of every independent state. What I mean is that in international (or better intercontiental) relationships, we occur as the USE.


My opinion.

I highly doubt that would come in our Lifetime, and that's coming from someone who is eighteen, things only seem to be getting worse, the plans for a European Army have been drawn up, people don't want it but that doesn't stop the European Union, because it's not really a Democracy, the unelected just taking over Europe and telling every country what to do, not cool at all.

Especially when the United Kingdom already devote troops to the Baltic State, which means if the Russians where to ever get a stupid idea, the British Army would deploy to them countries straight away to defend them, that's on-top of the fact we are already in NATO. If someone was to try and Attack Europe, I can assure you that the British Army would get involved, so the idea behind the European Union creating this gigantic army which is like a smaller version of NATO is completely and utterly stupid, especially because it wouldn't work like NATO, the people who aren't elected by the British, and other countries will be forced to become involved in conflicts that it has no place in, because some un-elected idiot has decided to something which other countries in Europe Disagree with.

Essentially if this was to happen, our 'Assets' as they say in the Armed Forces would be under the control of someone in Brussels, rather than the Prime Minister of the Secretary of Defense, they knew this would of made people vote leave, and that's why they postponed it's announcement until after the vote.

I'm personally not bothered really about this Vote Leave / Vote Remain. In the end, we would of always left the European Union, it was just a matter of time until they did something Stupid, like creating a European Army, or forcing us into a war for no reason once in it.

You do not look beyond the rim of the plate (German saying).

If there was a war, you always would have been involved, just as any other European country, simply because we are in Europe and we share the same history.

We always did and we always will. Unfortunately yes, it won't be within my lifetime to see this USE coming true, but I highly hope for that to happen one day.

Eventually I'm sure some sort of that will happen, because mankind will overcome wars etc.

Yes, you are correct, should Europe become under attack, we would without a doubt defend it. However, the European Union Army would let Brussels use our Army, for it's own Agenda, and in no way should that happen. I have no idea, and I have yet to see an argument on why a European Army would be smart, it would simply result in more countries being drawn into Wars, even if their people don't agree with it, and that's because the European Union is not an actual democracy, so the people would have their army and country drawn into a war, by a Union which original purpose was to bring more cooperation between countries.

I've got nothing against cooperation between countries in Europe, but it baffles be how we went from a thing about cooperation, into this system where the elected people from this country are told in what policies they can and cannot pass in their own country, because how the European Council, again being the un-elected pass the laws. Completely a stupid concept and idea, it's not a cooperation, and it merely removes power from this country to do what it believes is in the best interest of it's citizens. 

Like I said, the European Union needs a lot of work and for sure a radical change in its current state such as the leading politicians in Brussels.

I get your point and I understand your concerns.
To me, a European Union army would be a great thing, but not under circumstances like that.

The best way would be to just gather all the armies and let them train together, that is one of many steps to overcome conflicts within Europe itself and it shall strengthen their friendship. The next step is to have elected leaders by ALL of the people in Europe, or at least find a system that works if that's too much (I just had a great idea in my mind but as I was writing that sentence it just disappeared. :().

 

Then stay strong as a united Europe and not was a state within a state and do their own thing. It for sure will take time to reach this point, yes, but just because it's difficult and takes effort doesn't mean to not even attempt.

On 14/07/2016 at 11:46 AM, Sn0wf4ll said:

The English youth should get a new referendum and decide once again, as many young people want to stay in the EU.

I have seen this argument thrown a lot on the table from the very morning following the referendum... but it's actually not true! Actually, not in the way most people present it 

It is true that most people between 18 and 34 years old are greatly favourable to the UK remaining in the European Union... but most medias forget to talk about the abstention! Indeed, many young people wanted to stay in the EU, but guess what... Only 36% of them went to vote to this referendum!  While 81% of the 55+ years old bothered going to vote and make their voice be heard.

So, sure, the youth was favourable to remain... but it is their fault in the first place that this happened, because they thought they didn't have to bother going to vote! Voting is important, and this youth apparently did not understand it, so in my opinion, they deserve the result they got 

You can also turn the tables around. Maybe it was just self-explanatory and goes without saying to remain so they didn't vote.

What about that eh?
Sure, they should have voted of course, but indeed maybe they just thought that of course they are going to stay so they didn't feel the need to vote.

 

Also many people voted to leave because they were baited with fake promises that right after the vote already got taken away just immediately.

 

Edited July 15, 20169 yr by Sn0wf4ll

4 hours ago, Sn0wf4ll said:

You can also turn the tables around. Maybe it was just self-explanatory and goes without saying to remain so they didn't vote.

What about that eh?
Sure, they should have voted of course, but indeed maybe they just thought that of course they are going to stay so they didn't feel the need to vote.

Also many people voted to leave because they were baited with fake promises that right after the vote already got taken away just immediately.

Yeah, but no, democracy doesn't work like that 

Just because you think you can guess the result, doesn't mean it will indeed be the result, that referendum is the proof of it. Voting right is one of the most important duties we have, and if they felt like it wasn't needed, well then maybe they don't deserve the right to vote at all... People died for us to have this right, and they disregarded it, I find it very amusing and silly that they dare complain now! :) They should have moved their bum to the voting offices that day, instead of taking selfies for their instagram account or complain on Twitter about how complicated their lives are