Pavelow

But the media won't actually acknowledge that, so it's pointless. It's sad, actually.

The words of one man do not define the views of an entire country.

Uh, no. Just now. That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Slavery may have been the reason they went to war, but tell me where they fought for the right to rap, murder and torture them. Because the the North did just that, too. Lynch mobs, and racism were still rampant. But yes, history is written by the victors, which is a big reason why the CSA is the black sheep. Well I've lived in 4 different states: Michigan, Illinois, Ohio, and California, and no one viewed it as such. It's exactly why no one had a problem with it for years. And I never said I was explicitly talking about the SC confederate flag. The CSA flag has been flown at many sites and events following the end of the Civil War. The words of one man, do not speak for a nation, just as racist remarks made by our politicians today aren't made on behalf of the nation. Nothing in their Constitution or Declaration of Secession points to slavery as a racist institution. Yes, many of their politicians were racist, but slavery was not practiced because of racism, but because of necessity (no, I am not justifying slavery). Slavery was socially acceptable since the times of Romans and nobody cared. Now all of a sudden it was wrong and evil. Much of the world still agreed with slavery and accepted it. Our civil war occurred right when the anti-slavery movement was happening across the world. Slavery was not universally viewed as evil and wrong, back then. History is written by the victors. Our education system teaches that the South was racist and a bunch of slavers, and the North was the angel from God that went to war to end slavery and they weren't racist. The North was just as racist as the South, that didn't care to end slavery. My point is that the South did not go to war because they were racist and hated blacks. Slavery was not officially viewed as a form of racism by the CSA (Nothing in their official documents suggest it was a form of racism). Sure many people owned slaves because they were racist, but that was not an official view. Which is why many in the CSA did not support slavery but still fought for them. Robert Lee was quoted numerous times stating that he was against slavery, but we're still going to lump him in with racist slavers? If you're going to argue that the South was racist, then you'll have to include the North with that. It's about slavery, not racism. And yes, you can have one without the other. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not going to argue on why they went to war and all that. It's all a debate, and neither you nor I are right. The south was racist but so was the north. Just as much. Lincoln didn't care either way if slavery was ended (that's a written fact).

If it continues like this, the CSA and all those that gave their life will be remembered much like the Nazis are nowadays.

So this is a pretty heated topic right now, and seems to only be getting hotter. This was something being debated in another topic, after it had gotten derailed. Ebay, Amazon, Apple, Walmart are all starting to ban sales and remove anything associated with the Civil War, more specifically the Confederate Flag. Politicians and comedians alike are throwing their opinions out there from Jon Stewart to S.C. Gov. Nikki Hailey. People are claiming that "Gone With the Wind" should be banned because it 'sympathizes' with the South. All of this has started due to the shooting of a mostly black church in Charleston, SC by a white racist, which is an atrocity to say the least. What is making me, literally sick, is the way that people want to erase the Civil War and the CSA from history. To bring down monuments and flags that are around the Southern states. The media and liberal groups are bashing the CSA as nothing but racist slavers, and being compared to Nazis. That the Confederacy was the "face of slavery". Is there going to come to a point where we, as Americans, deny our heritage? Deny that my father killed his son in battle? That my brother killed his brother in battle? Deny that differences were so bad in the United States that it led to families killing each other? Now many of you think that I'm making this a bigger deal than it really is, but look what it's coming to. Ebay stated they'd suspend sales of Confederate flags (yet they still allow symbols of nazism). Amazon, has quietly removed any listings to the Confederacy. Apple pulled any games that are related to the Civil War. People are reporting that some Wal-Marts are pulling anything to do with the Civil War; as it reminds people of the Confederacy. A song, written back in the '50s by Johnny Horton, is now catching a lot of hate. "Johnny Reb", was once considered to be a meaningful tribute to the Confederate soldiers who fell in battle, (which still has powerful imagery to this day in my opinion)but is now being labeled as a racist song. Everyday, it's getting worse. In S.C. there are talks that they want people to vote on whether or not to keep the confederate flag up. I don't care whether or not you agree with the South or the North, but the improper portrayal of the CSA is getting out of hand. The Confederate flag is not a symbol of racism. It never was. If that was the case, then the US flag should be included in there as well, as racism lasted longer under the Stars and Stripes than it did underneath the Stars and Bars. 2 months ago, people would look at the Confederate flag and only think of treason, NOT racism. Now, all of a sudden, it's become a symbol of racism. Why? Because some racist posed with it, before he shot up a mostly black church? How come is wasn't a big deal back in the mid 1900s? The KKK is almost always seen with it, and nobody cried. But now it's a big deal? Because it gives the liberal groups and media a platform to spew their agenda? Then, what really makes me sick to my stomach, is the defacing of Confederate monuments, especially the ones honoring the fallen confederate soldiers. That IS NOT acceptable, by any means. You are desecrating the grave and memorials of someone's son. Of someone's brother. Of someone's father. I don't care if you're a 'Yankee' or a 'Rebel', if you gave you're life fighting for your beliefs, than you deserve to be honored (don't post stuff about "then you must be ok with the Swastika" because it's not even close to the same thing). This is not meant to "stir the pot". But merely to express my views on how the media and liberal groups are bashing the CSA, and are not portraying them honorably or historically correct. Also, I'm not a native southerner. If you don't believe they should be treated honorably, just know that when Abraham Lincoln went to address the nation on the North's victory at the end of the Civil War, the Confederate flag flew just as a high as the US flag, and they played Dixie.

Because they're not flying the flag to remember slavery and racism. They're flying to remember the loss of life. Besides, there's a lot of evidence that supports the the theory that the South was on the verge of abolishing slavery right before the war ended. And, again, many states actually started to recognize freed slaves (through various means). Although that's a debatable issue. The South would have still fought even if it didn't have slavery. There's more to it that just slavery. Again, the flag is not flown to remember the treason and racism. It's flown to remember the soldiers that fought (many of whom didn't own slaves, or were against the idea). It's not like my views on this issue are of a radical kind of thinking. Our governor (of SC) supports the flag (although she's willing to relocate it again). Many senators from southern states support flying the flag for remembrance of the loss of life. Distinguished politicians and 'the higher ups' also share my way of thinking. Many southerners do. ------ Look, I'm originally from Michigan. I'm a northerner, not a southerner, but I do live in South Carolina. When I first moved down here, I was totally against the idea of flying the confederate flag, and completely against having any reminders of the fact that the south rebelled against the United States. However, I slowly realized that that was not their intentions (Flying it to remember slavery and racism). Especially after serving in the military, it means more to me when one man gives up his life for his country (or state in this case). Many of those soldiers held no racist views, and did not care one way or another for slavery (they taught them to read and write, simple schooling, gave them freedoms). They simply fought for their state, and later their country (CSA). The same way I do respect the fallen Wehrmacht (the SS were the ones responsible for the mass executions and plethora of war crimes) soldiers from Nazi Germany. They fought and died for their country regardless if they held the same belief as the Nazi leaders. Does that really make me evil minded, racist and sadistic?

This is what I was saying as well. The south said crazy things about African Americans, but so did the North. Equality was achieved about 100 years later. Don't pretend that the North wasn't racist as hell, as well. Everyone paints the North as the hero of the African Americans, but they weren't. They never went to war to free slaves only to try and hold the country together. Only after immense pressure from liberal groups did Lincoln cave in and sign the Emancipation Proclamation. Again, I don't mean to sound so offensive (I feel like I am), but this is the exact reason why a lot of the South gets upset when the Civil War is brought up. People think that the South were the only racist savages. They weren't. The North was just as racist as the South but they did not have slavery. I don't get the comparison between Nazis and the Confederacy. Hindsight is 20/20. Yes slavery was bad, but this was at a time when slavery was still socially acceptable at a time. Granted it was towards the end of that period of human history, slavery was okay in many peoples eyes, around the world. Abolition was still becoming a global movement at the time. Many people were okay with slavery around the world (even though that didn't make it any more right). NOBODY around the world was okay with the Holocaust. They were the only country that condoned mass genocide. Again, hindsight is 20/20. We know, globally, slavery is evil, but back in the 1860s it was a completely different mindset. Not the case with the Nazis.

That's exactly why I said slavery was the common element throughout their problems. But as I've said, the South would have done anything to improve their situation. Be it slaves or free men. It wasn't for the sole evil purpose of keeping slaves because of hatred and racism as many people believe.

The US flag is being used by white supremacist groups. The KKK flew the US flag back in the early 1900s because the US was inherently racist (pre civil rights) and they supported the US government in upholding those racist laws, so you could say the same thing. I understand what you're saying and what you mean, but it's how you view it. There's no right way to view it. To many people in the South (me included), we don't associate the Confederate flag with slavery and lynching and killing of slaves (yes we acknowledge it happened but it also happened under the US flag) because we don't support nor believe in the idea that the Confederacy was fighting for the sole reason to retain slavery (see reply to Cp) but to improve their economic and industrial situation which, at the time, happened to involve slavery. If there industry and economy was still poor but did not rely on slavery, they still would have seceded (If that explains my point of view). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in the world who doesn't associate the swastika with the Holocaust. But in America, many people don't associate the Confederate flag with slavery. Sorry, but I disagree with stating that mass enslavement is as bad as mass murder. Not even close to be comparable.

I clearly stated I didn't support slavery. Yes I understand that there was racism in the South, but there rampant racism in the North at the same time and even after the Civil War. You're painting the South as a country that rebelled because they just wanted to keep slaves. That's not true at all. The disparaging economic differences between the South and the North were night and day. The south was not happy with that. They didn't want to be agricultural, but the North basically forced them (due to need for cotton). The differences between Federal and States Rights. The southern states wanted more independence from the Federal Government, the northern states wanted more federal control. Yes slavery played a part (as the south was primarily agriculture), but that was not the main reason for seceding. There was a multitude of reason why, that many people ignore. Hell, the South was about to end slavery around 1864, but it was too late, but many southern states started to recognize freed slaves. Many of the generals (Lee and Johnston) in the CSA have been quoted as saying that slavery is immoral and evil, yet they still fought. Surprisingly, non-whites who fought for the CSA were paid the same as white soldiers, yet in the Union were paid much less. So yes, slavery played a part in all the reasons the South seceded (the abolition of slavery would have devastated and wrecked the southern economy and industry) but was not the main factor. The fact that most southern states started to recognize free slaves and found memoirs from CSA politicians who were also quoted as saying that they'd like to abolish slavery, shows that the South was not fighting just for slavery. They would have given up slavery if that meant they could secede. I've yet to actually say anything about the shooting. All I'm saying is that the flag is fine to fly. It does not represent racism. Plain and simple. That's ignorant to think that. Government officials have said multiple times that the flag is not flown to represent the CSA's secession or treason, but to honor the men that fought what they believed in. 260,000 people died as a result of the war. To not honor them would be a slap in the face to their families. **I clearly stated I didn't support slavery. **

Doesn't matter. It was adopted by the Nazis and that's what the swastika has come to represent. It's unfortunate.

England only abolished it in their homeland but still allowed it on their African and Indian Colonies. Portugal, Russia, Poland, The Ottoman Empire all still had slavery around the time the Civil War was being fought. We're not celebrating the fact that we seceded. We're honoring those that had the balls to stand up for themselves. Which is why it was moved from on top of the state house to in front of the monument. The monument is honoring all the fallen Confederate soldiers. Fathers were willing to fight against their son for their beliefs (which is tragic, but goes to show you how strong they believed in their cause). That flag is in front of the monument. Not on the State House

Because the swastika represents mass murder off millions of innocents and the dream of conquering the world and oppressing the population. There's no getting around it. It was used specifically as the seal/symbol/flag for the Nazis. Germany at that time was just bad; their whole 'manifesto' was racist and 'evil'. The Confederate States didn't try nor want to kill off an entire group of people. The CSA did not want to conquer the world. They didn't have an 'agenda' or 'manifesto'. They simply wanted to better themselves. Yes, unfortunately slavery was practiced but that was just how agriculture around the world was (I'm not saying I'm for it). Many countries practiced it still, and it was efficient for them. As a side note, I believe slavery would be dead in modern times due to advanced technology (1 machine can perform the task of 100 people) even if the Emancipation Proclamation or any state or federal laws regarding indentured servitude hadn't been passed. The Confederate flag represented nothing more than a group of people standing up for themselves when they felt they were being neglected by their government. Basically what we did when we rebelled against England. They gave us the shit end of the stick, so we fought to stand up for ourselves. That's exactly what happened with the Confederate States of America. **DISCLAIMER** I don't actually believe the Civil War was right or just, but I do respect those that stood up for themselves when they felt they were being raped by the government. The swastika was used to represent Nazism. These are the 25 points to Hitler's Nazi Party.

It does not fly over the capitol, it's over a monument. This is a point that is so aggravating right now. The rest of the country and the world has not idea what the confederate flag means. They automatically assume it means racism and treason. It does not. The KKK made it represent racism. The South stood for something they believed in while the rest of the country went to crap. It's the same people people that believe the Civil War was fought over slaves. That's ignorance at it's finest. There is heritage and pride in the fact that our ancestors stood up for themselves against a government that would not help them. The whole war can be debated and the fact is that both sides are right (I'm not gonna argue over the reasons for the war). But the Confederate flag has deep meaning to a lot of people. And it does not mean racism!!!

Lolz. Police mod comes out the day I got my final offer for the agency I applied for.

Lolz. Just had PRK surgery and can't use computers or phones for more than 10 Minutes at a time. Damn you all

Yes, I was right before. This community has turned toxic. Now it's resorted to personal attacks, off topic arguing and useless banter. Just close this topic and all related to lspdfr. Close topics others create. Do it until it releases.

​Again, invalidated. Many gamers who played gta online wanted more content once they reached the mega rich status. AND, many gamers who played gta online wanted R* to purge the hackers from GTAO.

What do you call releasing free content to players, as well as making sure that others don't ruin the experience with online mods? Yeah, that sure sounds like they don't care about gamers.

No, it isn't. It's not a border checkpoint. It's not manned by a CBP worker. It's not even manned by a federal employee and not checking for any illegals. You're OP was mostly about how you're against border checkpoint. The video was just random and had nothing to do with your statements. I've been civil through my posts, so I'm not sure why think I'm angry.

Well maybe you should change the topic title. It's clearly not a border checkpoint refusal video. And if you created this topic to only laugh at a video, then why even bring up a controversial topic, stating your opinion on border checkpoints? You invited a debate.

Well it's completely legal. CBP/DHS has every legal right to search you without a warrant or probable cause. In this video, that person wasn't even CBP. So essentially, you posted a video that is almost in no way related to border searches, just so you can complain about border searches? Seems legit.....

Because it's a mod with no release date. People are fighting with each other on here about it not being released, not providing enough info, etc. Just an unbiased observation: it's mostly new people here, that are causing it. Draw your own conclusions from that.

Wow. This community became hideously toxic all of a sudden. Not deserving of anything.

A lot of people on here will boycott 1013 and don't really want to talk about it. Which is why it's avoided being mentioned. But let's avoid that fiasco again.