I think everybody knows this by now, but ISIS does not represent islam. 

I think everybody knows this by now, but ISIS does not represent islam. 

I disagree that ISIS does not represent Islam.

 

I don't know anyone who could provide 3 solid examples of how Islam has significantly helped the world. The Qu'ran tells Muslims to kill those who go against the "peaceful" teachings of Allah, and those who do evil and attack them. To Muslims, the developed world (USA, UK, CA, etc) are evil, go against the teachings of Allah, and "attack" them. This is why we have so many issues with Islamic extremists and terrorism, because they are out to kill us. It's what their holy book teaches, and it's what they believe in.

 

This would also explain why the Bible has similar teachings, but Christians aren't running up and down the street shooting people, beheading people, hanging and burning people, stealing school girls, lining up innocent civilians and murdering them on the side of the road in a 3rd world country, etc. Because the developed world was built on Christianity and raised on Christianity. "God save the queen", "...One nation, under God...", "God bless South Africa", "God keep our land glorious and free..." etc.

Edited December 15, 201411 yr by CriminalKillaz

I disagree that ISIS does not represent Islam.

 

I don't know anyone who could provide 3 solid examples of how Islam has significantly helped the world. The Qu'ran tells Muslims to kill those who go against the "peaceful" teachings of Allah, and those who do evil and attack them. To Muslims, the developed world (USA, UK, CA, etc) are evil, go against the teachings of Allah, and "attack" them. This is why we have so many issues with Islamic extremists and terrorism, because they are out to kill us. It's what their holy book teaches, and it's what they believe in.

 

This would also explain why the Bible has similar teachings, but Christians aren't running up and down the street shooting people, beheading people, hanging and burning people, stealing school girls, lining up innocent civilians and murdering them on the side of the road in a 3rd world country, etc. Because the developed world was built on Christianity and raised on Christianity. "God save the queen", "...One nation, under God...", "God bless South Africa", "God keep our land glorious and free..." etc.

 

So nice of you to only mention the english speaking countries when talking about the "developed world" ...

 

Neither religion has brought anything materially valuable to the world. Religions are about giving a moral compass to people, giving them something to believe in, to provide them with hope. The old testament is full of pretty cruel things that represent the world back then. The new testament though preaches love and a forgiving god. Still, if you read the old testament, you will find a lot of things that you could interpretate in a way that leads you right into a crusade. And that's what Europe did in 1092, leading a crusade against islam.

 

If you ask what good islam has brought the world, look to the middle ages. Back then, islam was a lot further in its philosophy than christianity, supporting science and exploration. That's why so many of our most important discoveries have been made in the middle east back then. So if you're asking for things that the islamic world has done for the rest of the world take medicine, mathematics, philosophy, ...

 

Unfortunately the religion took a dark turn somewhere down the road. But why is it that christians and jews don't fight each other anymore? Because we've had our fair share of wars and tragedies. Europe had a war every decade until the end of WW2, jews have been seen as people of lower class since about 2000 years. The muslim world hasn't had a huge war since the start of the afghanistan war in 1989. The muslim world is in a lot of change right now, starting with the revolutions a few years ago and now, the collective effort to get rid of IS. Of course, religion still is a big part of rulers in the middle east. The irani government wouldn't exist, if it weren't for religion, the saudi kingdom is based on religion. It is so much more than just a phrase in a book. I won't argue that there are a lot of violent phrases in Koran, probably more than in the bible, some muslim friends of mine who actually read it in arabic have actually told me that in its original voice, the book very much says you should kill the "heretics". But like christians chose not to live how the old testament told them to, muslims can choose to follow a different path, a non violent path.

 

There will always be those people who seek their justification in these books, and they can find them in there.

 

But back on topic: Too sad to hear that hostages actually died. Seems like the police went in after they heard a loud "bang".

 

So nice of you to only mention the english speaking countries when talking about the "developed world" ...

 

Neither religion has brought anything materially valuable to the world. Religions are about giving a moral compass to people, giving them something to believe in, to provide them with hope. The old testament is full of pretty cruel things that represent the world back then. The new testament though preaches love and a forgiving god. Still, if you read the old testament, you will find a lot of things that you could interpretate in a way that leads you right into a crusade. And that's what Europe did in 1092, leading a crusade against islam.

 

If you ask what good islam has brought the world, look to the middle ages. Back then, islam was a lot further in its philosophy than christianity, supporting science and exploration. That's why so many of our most important discoveries have been made in the middle east back then. So if you're asking for things that the islamic world has done for the rest of the world take medicine, mathematics, philosophy, ...

 

Unfortunately the religion took a dark turn somewhere down the road. But why is it that christians and jews don't fight each other anymore? Because we've had our fair share of wars and tragedies. Europe had a war every decade until the end of WW2, jews have been seen as people of lower class since about 2000 years. The muslim world hasn't had a huge war since the start of the afghanistan war in 1989. The muslim world is in a lot of change right now, starting with the revolutions a few years ago and now, the collective effort to get rid of IS. Of course, religion still is a big part of rulers in the middle east. The irani government wouldn't exist, if it weren't for religion, the saudi kingdom is based on religion. It is so much more than just a phrase in a book. I won't argue that there are a lot of violent phrases in Koran, probably more than in the bible, some muslim friends of mine who actually read it in arabic have actually told me that in its original voice, the book very much says you should kill the "heretics". But like christians chose not to live how the old testament told them to, muslims can choose to follow a different path, a non violent path.

 

There will always be those people who seek their justification in these books, and they can find them in there.

 

But back on topic: Too sad to hear that hostages actually died. Seems like the police went in after they heard a loud "bang".

 

I understand your views, but they're not even remotely close to the point I'm trying to make. The discussion here isn't about Judaism, Christianity, or any religion other than Islam; I was just using them as an example to reinforce my statement of Christianity being the base of the developed world, explaining why Christians aren't the typical group for committing terrorism. I also noticed that you went way off topic from what I was originally discussing.

 

My purpose here is to propose that Islam is not a religion of peace, simply because of what the Qu'ran orders it's followers to do. The developed world is seen as evil in the eyes of Muslims, explaining why the developed world is a constant target of terrorism. When was the last time there was an Islamic related terrorist attack in Zimbabwe? Central African Republic? Brazil? Mexico? Myanmar? Indonesia? 

why do i feel like something big might go down soon. Theres this, then there was also a bomb threat ion my city the week before hand.

Is the chocolate safe

 

BTW Admin plz, this is totally relavent to the thread, cause the shootout took place at Lindt's chocolate cafe soooo yea.

Edited December 16, 201411 yr by Takao

I understand your views, but they're not even remotely close to the point I'm trying to make. The discussion here isn't about Judaism, Christianity, or any religion other than Islam; I was just using them as an example to reinforce my statement of Christianity being the base of the developed world, explaining why Christians aren't the typical group for committing terrorism. I also noticed that you went way off topic from what I was originally discussing.

 

My purpose here is to propose that Islam is not a religion of peace, simply because of what the Qu'ran orders it's followers to do. The developed world is seen as evil in the eyes of Muslims, explaining why the developed world is a constant target of terrorism. When was the last time there was an Islamic related terrorist attack in Zimbabwe? Central African Republic? Brazil? Mexico? Myanmar? Indonesia? 

 

I'm sorry but I find that what Crickethill said was right onto the point you're trying to make. You stated that no one could give you example of how Islam helped the world, he did. You stated that the Quran tells people to go out and shoot people against their religions, he proved you wrong.

 

I'm sorry but read the Quran and you'll see that nowhere you'll find a passage telling you straight that you have to kill people against your religion. All is matter of interpretation, and those extremists interpret the words to fit their doctrin and propaganda, nothing more.

 

It's like all the priests that killed women because they were supposed to be witches back in the middle age. Those priests weren't muslims as far as I know, and they still killed them because they were "evil", though nowhere in the Bible it tells people to kill witches. Matter of interpretation.

Edited December 16, 201411 yr by Hystery

No, ISIS does not represent Islam -- and Islam isn't one cohesive religion. It's made up of sects, just like Christianity (Shia, Sunni, Sufi, etc.) and within those sects, different groups believe different things and have different attitudes. One mosque might be full of people with one focus while the mosque down the street might predominantly include people with different attitudes. Like comparing one church to another.

ISIS is a political group that uses Islam to scare and blackmail people into following them, but also to lure disenfranchised young people (targeting young men, mostly) to their cause. Comparing them to Nazis would be more accurate (though still not quite right) than comparing them to moderate Muslims. The Catholic church used similar tactics during their attempted mass conversion of Europe, hundreds of years ago. They used fear, coercion and outright violence. In the taking of a city during the Crusades, there's an account of some high-up Bishop in the Church being asked how his soldiers would know the Christians in the city from the heretics (Muslims). The Bishop said, "Kill them all. God knows his own." But associating that lunatic asshole with everyday Christians is naturally unrealistic for the same reasons that associating everyday Muslims with ISIS is irrational.

Islam, like Christianity, is full of contradictions, especially in the Quran, itself (just like the Christian Bible). There's a lot of room to pick and choose, just as Christians do. Just as you don't see the vast majority of Christians stoning their neighbours to death, you won't see the vast majority of Muslims murdering people who refuse to convert to Islam. Most people, Muslim or otherwise, just want to get on with their lives.

I think everybody knows this by now, but ISIS does not represent islam. 

I Rarely ever Disagree with you, but with this I Do.  Even though other Muslims may not Like it, its groups like ISIS, Al Qaeda, The Taliban, the Chechen Rebels, Hamas. etc that Represent islam to the Average person, and its hard to find any evidence that they try Not to represent Islam when most of these Groups Flags have "Holy Quotes"  on them.. Not to mention that all these groups wish to Enforce Sharia Law on the People of the Area's they Control and Sometimes Kill the People who Don't Practice Islam. 

(I'm Sure you know what the Sharia Law is (its Religious))  and unfortunately its not the Muslims that Do their Job and live their Days Honestly that the Average Person See's. Its the Muslims That, Fly Planes Into Buildings, Cut Soldiers Heads off, Hold Hostages in Cafe's, Bomb Trains, etc..

 

 

 

 

Hystery - I'm sorry but read the Quran and you'll see that nowhere you'll find a passage telling you straight that you have to kill people against your religion. All is matter of interpretation, and those extremists interpret the words to fit their doctrin and propaganda, nothing more.

Are you Sure about that? Here Are Some Quotes From the Quran Translated into English...

 

5:33 Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

 

4:95 Not equal are those believers remaining [at home] - other than the disabled - and the mujahideen, [who strive and fight] in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred the mujahideen through their wealth and their lives over those who remain [behind], by degrees. And to both Allah has promised the best [reward]. But Allah has preferred the mujahideen over those who remain [behind] with a great reward -

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 201411 yr by XBR410

The gunman and two of the hostages are confirmed dead. Tori Johnson, the manager of the cafe, attempted to disarm the gunman and was shot and killed. The second victim was mother of three Katrina Dawson who was fatally shot whilst trying to protect her pregnant colleague. A police officer was also hit in the head by buckshot fired by the gunman, however he was discharged from hospital this morning. 

 

It looks as if the officers didn't plan on breaching the building, it was only when Tori attacked the gunman, allowing many of the hostages to escape, that the police reacted. The majority of the gunfire heard in the footage is actually stun grenades. More than five stun grenades were thrown into the building before and during the assault. The assault lasted a mere 38 seconds.

http://www.news.com.au/national/martin-place-cafe-siege-police-storm-cafe-and-kill-gunman-sheik-man-haron-monis/story-fncynjr2-1227157498633

The gunman and two of the hostages are confirmed dead. Tori Johnson, the manager of the cafe, attempted to disarm the gunman and was shot and killed. The second victim was mother of three Katrina Dawson who was fatally shot whilst trying to protect her pregnant colleague. A police officer was also hit in the head by buckshot fired by the gunman, however he was discharged from hospital this morning. 

 

It looks as if the officers didn't plan on breaching the building, it was only when Tori attacked the gunman, allowing many of the hostages to escape, that the police reacted. The majority of the gunfire heard in the footage is actually stun grenades. More than five stun grenades were thrown into the building before and during the assault. The assault lasted a mere 38 seconds.

http://www.news.com.au/national/martin-place-cafe-siege-police-storm-cafe-and-kill-gunman-sheik-man-haron-monis/story-fncynjr2-1227157498633

 

Very sad to loose a family member, a mother and wife, especially at this time of year.

 

The reports I heard said that the hostages escaped, after that the gunman got increasingly nervous. So it seems like Tori Johnson tried to disarm him. The police said they moved in after they heard shots fired, so I assume all this happened after the hostages escaped. If you watch the footage, you can see some time pass after the hostages left and the police suddenly storming the café.

 

Very unfortunate turn of events. But I hope australians can keep on with their lives and not let the islamist terror frighten them, because that would be exactly what terrorists like IS or Al Quaida want.

Very sad turn of events, I really do hope that the family members can recover from their lost.

I'm sorry but I find that what Crickethill said was right onto the point you're trying to make. You stated that no one could give you example of how Islam helped the world, he did. You stated that the Quran tells people to go out and shoot people against their religions, he proved you wrong.

 

I'm sorry but read the Quran and you'll see that nowhere you'll find a passage telling you straight that you have to kill people against your religion. All is matter of interpretation, and those extremists interpret the words to fit their doctrin and propaganda, nothing more.

 

It's like all the priests that killed women because they were supposed to be witches back in the middle age. Those priests weren't muslims as far as I know, and they still killed them because they were "evil", though nowhere in the Bible it tells people to kill witches. Matter of interpretation.

This is where political correctness steps into play in defending the actions of blatant terrorism. Why haven't any Muslims stepped up and publicly said that they disagree with the actions of these terror groups? Why aren't Muslims taking to the streets in protest against ISIS and terrorism? Where are the "peaceful" Muslims? Why aren't they speaking out against terrorism? Maybe the silently agree? Maybe they condone to the actions of ISIS on a more low-key manner? Questions that are consistently asked, but never answered.

 

No, ISIS does not represent Islam -- and Islam isn't one cohesive religion. It's made up of sects, just like Christianity (Shia, Sunni, Sufi, etc.) and within those sects, different groups believe different things and have different attitudes. One mosque might be full of people with one focus while the mosque down the street might predominantly include people with different attitudes. Like comparing one church to another.

ISIS is a political group that uses Islam to scare and blackmail people into following them, but also to lure disenfranchised young people (targeting young men, mostly) to their cause. Comparing them to Nazis would be more accurate (though still not quite right) than comparing them to moderate Muslims. The Catholic church used similar tactics during their attempted mass conversion of Europe, hundreds of years ago. They used fear, coercion and outright violence. In the taking of a city during the Crusades, there's an account of some high-up Bishop in the Church being asked how his soldiers would know the Christians in the city from the heretics (Muslims). The Bishop said, "Kill them all. God knows his own." But associating that lunatic asshole with everyday Christians is naturally unrealistic for the same reasons that associating everyday Muslims with ISIS is irrational.

Islam, like Christianity, is full of contradictions, especially in the Quran, itself (just like the Christian Bible). There's a lot of room to pick and choose, just as Christians do. Just as you don't see the vast majority of Christians stoning their neighbours to death, you won't see the vast majority of Muslims murdering people who refuse to convert to Islam. Most people, Muslim or otherwise, just want to get on with their lives.

However the main difference between Christianity and Islam is the sense of generalization in Islam. Allah commands it's followers to terrorize and murder those who do evil or go against the teachings of Allah. What can we consider to be evil? What can we consider contradictory to the teachings of Allah? In Christianity, God tells us to spread the word of Christ. Create miracles, help people, help your enemies, love one another, spread happiness. If the teachings of Christ are rejected, do not force Christianity upon them; walk away. The difference between Christianity and Islam, is that Christianity doesn't force it's belief on others, and those who do are WRONG. There is also a difference in the Bible, the entire Bible can't be associated with Christianity. Christians believe in the old testament, but follow the teachings of the new testament, after the birth of Jesus Christ. Judaism is accorded to the old testament, which is where Judaism and Christianity share their differences. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell Christians to force Christianity on the general public. It says to spread the word peacefully, and accept those who deny it. The Qu'ran tells Muslims to spread the word of Islam, and force it on those who reject it.

This is where political correctness steps into play in defending the actions of blatant terrorism. Why haven't any Muslims stepped up and publicly said that they disagree with the actions of these terror groups? Why aren't Muslims taking to the streets in protest against ISIS and terrorism? Where are the "peaceful" Muslims? Why aren't they speaking out against terrorism? Maybe the silently agree? Maybe they condone to the actions of ISIS on a more low-key manner? Questions that are consistently asked, but never answered.

 

Well you'd be surprised to know that here, in France, several manifestations occured made by Muslims of all over the country to claim that they weren't supporting ISIS, as well as there has been spokesmen of several main mosques claiming that ISIS wasn't following the Islam religion, and shouldn't even called Islamic State.

 

We, in Europe, just know how to make the difference between religion and extremism.

Edited December 16, 201411 yr by Hystery

Well you'd be surprised to know that here, in France, several manifestations occured made by Muslims of all over the country to claim that they weren't supporting ISIS, as well as there has been spokesmen of several main mosques claiming that ISIS wasn't following the Islam religion, and shouldn't even called Islamic State.

 

We, in Europe, just know how to make the difference between religion and extremism.

Hence the anti-Islam marches in Germany? I don't recommend you generalize Europe as a whole dude.

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/thousands-march-in-germany-anti-islamization-protests/ar-BBgRXHN?ocid=ansIntBusinessTimes11

Edited December 16, 201411 yr by CriminalKillaz

I don't think germans are really a reference when it comes to the respect of other people and other religions, considering their past.

I don't think germans are really a reference when it comes to the respect of other people and other religions, considering their past.

And France Is?

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/01/27/hate-filled-protest-in-france-attracts-thousands-crowd-chants-jew-france-is-not-for-you-video/   Now THAT's a bit ironic lol  Sorry i just had to knock you off your European High Horse lol  

 

and also to answer your last quote A lot of areas in Europe Other than Germany have had Anti-Muslim Protests in recent years, The United Kingdom for Instance has been Doing shit like that Since one of their Soldiers was Beheaded on the Street by a Muslim they have a whole bunch of crazy crap going on there, I've Seen that there are Muslim's there who walk around Encouraging the Sharia Law in London telling People how to live their Lives, there's a group called the English Defense Force that Ride around the Area and Shame almost every Muslim they see on the street, saying Stuff like "get out of here, this is our country. you want to practice your religion you can go back to your own country" other things like that  So i Wouldn't Generalize all of Europe as having the same mind on Islam