Let's be real though, in terms of Chicago and other cities, them Gun Laws are set up to fail. I've read up on this a bit, and according to the 4nd Amendment Rights, American Police must have a strong reason to stop and search someone for carrying a firearm, even if they are believed they are carrying an illegal firearm, they still don't have sufficient proof.

Where as here in the United Kingdom, you can be stopped and searched under the Firearms Act, Misuse of Drugs Act and so on-wards. I gather Americans are going to reply to this with, that it's stupid to let the Police search you for no reason, but let's be real. If you don't have a firearm illegally, you have nothing to worry about. The ones who do, lose their firearms and go to jail, and the place becomes that tiny bit safer.

8 hours ago, TheDivineHustle said:

But again you're overthinking it and totally missing the concept, which gun-grabbers always do. The gun laws are supposed to prevent these types of shootings. Here we have a city with the gun laws that the gun-grabbers love, and violent crime with guns is at record levels. Baltimore also has strict gun laws, not as strict as Chicago but you can't possibly tell me that Baltinore has no problem with guns. This is why conservatives can't take the left seriously when they shout for more gun control. The numbers simply don't add up. We can sit here and argue all we want, but the numbers don't add up. Even Bernie Sanders understood that. 

We don't think that murder is funny. We think that gun-grabbers claims of gun control being the best solution is amusing. Because I have yet to come across a gun-grabber that understands the concept of the 2nd amendment. 

Actually, I believe you're underthinking it. How many times have I explained to you that guns come from OUTSIDE the city limits of Chicago, where gun laws are looser? You just completely ignore that every time I take the time to explain it, and press on with the black and white argument of "well Chicago has a lot of shootings and they have gun control". That argument was a bullshit talking point made up by Fox News, it doesn't hold any water. Are you going to recognize that guns in inner cities come from places with looser gun control, or are we done here?

22 minutes ago, Riley24 said:

Actually, I believe you're underthinking it. How many times have I explained to you that guns come from OUTSIDE the city limits of Chicago, where gun laws are looser? You just completely ignore that every time I take the time to explain it, and press on with the black and white argument of "well Chicago has a lot of shootings and they have gun control". That argument was a bullshit talking point made up by Fox News, it doesn't hold any water. Are you going to recognize that guns in inner cities come from places with looser gun control, or are we done here?

Guess we're done. I'm not sure why the concept of the 2nd amendment is so challenging for liberals to comprehend. Seems pretty basic to me but hey, nobody's perfect. I would suggest you at least attempt to understand our argument before claiming that it's FOX News propaganda. I can debate on opini, but I can't debate on ignorance of opinion. 

Edited June 20, 20169 yr by TheDivineHustle

Just now, TheDivineHustle said:

Guess we're done. I'm not sure why the concept of the 2nd amendment is so challenging for liberals to comprehend. Seems pretty basic to me but hey, nobody's perfect. 

So you won't recognize the facts that null your argument, so therefor I don't understand the 2nd Amendment? Okay.

1 minute ago, Riley24 said:

So you won't recognize the facts that null your argument, so therefor I don't understand the 2nd Amendment? Okay.

You still haven't recognized the fact that crime is lower in areas with looser gun laws. Why are the shootings happening in Chicago rather than outside the city limits, as you say that's where the guns come from?

Just now, TheDivineHustle said:

You still haven't recognized the fact that crime is lower in areas with looser gun laws. Why are the shootings happening in Chicago rather than outside the city limits, as you say that's where the guns come from?

Because of the poverty in the inner cities. Areas outside of inner cities are generally populated by people of a higher socio-economic status, so they're less likely to join gangs and do violence.

Chicago is full of thugs; crime will happen regardless because law enforcement are not capable of handling the large amounts of crime. For God sakes Chicago has a 33 minute average response time for EMS.

16 minutes ago, Riley24 said:

Because of the poverty in the inner cities. Areas outside of inner cities are generally populated by people of a higher socio-economic status, so they're less likely to join gangs and do violence.

So are you saying that gun laws have absolutely nothing to do with the crime in Chicago?

2 minutes ago, TheDivineHustle said:

So are you saying that gun laws have absolutely nothing to do with the crime in Chicago?

this.

33 minutes ago, TheDivineHustle said:

So are you saying that gun laws have absolutely nothing to do with the crime in Chicago?

For the most part yes. Because its supported by evidence, not just unsubstantiated NRA one liners. Are YOU saying that gun laws outside of Chicago has nothing to do with the crime in Chicago? 

Also, I'd like to direct you to these articles:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/02/the-social-trends-driving-american-gangs-and-gun-violence/273170/?single_page=true#

http://prtl-sitea-maigs.nyc.gov/downloads/pdf/gun_markets_aug06.pdf

In short, there's an underground gun market where sellers bring guns into the city to sell to gang members, and crime actually rose after gun laws were loosened in the city. That's fact. Chicago is a city that's swimming in guns, its no wonder that so many people get shot. Its common sense. I've said it 100 times, if gun laws in neighboring communities were as tight as they were in Chicago, we would DRASTICALLY reduce the circulation of guns in the city. But if you'd like to completely ignore the facts about where criminals get their guns, be my guest.

You've been fed the lie that "all we need is for good guys to shoot the bad guys and we'll be safe". Coincidentally, the people that told that lie are also the people that make a TON of money in the firearms industry. Its working brilliantly for them.

On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 3:14 PM, Riley24 said:

Actually, I believe you're underthinking it. How many times have I explained to you that guns come from OUTSIDE the city limits of Chicago, where gun laws are looser? You just completely ignore that every time I take the time to explain it, and press on with the black and white argument of "well Chicago has a lot of shootings and they have gun control". That argument was a bullshit talking point made up by Fox News, it doesn't hold any water. Are you going to recognize that guns in inner cities come from places with looser gun control, or are we done here?

Your logic could be applied on a larger scale. If guns are completely banned in the US, then they will be brought in from outside of the US.

33 minutes ago, MayhemMercenary said:

Your logic could be applied on a larger scale. If guns are completely banned in the US, then they will be brought in from outside of the US.

Which is incredibly difficult, especially compared to how easy it is to drive across state lines with a trunk full of guns. Its impossible to completely eliminate the possibility of smuggling, no matter how good a country's border security is. But products become more expensive as it gets harder and harder to smuggle them. Its not inconceivable that many criminals simply wouldn't be able to afford the few guns that are being smuggled in.

We don't expect 100% effectiveness from any other program. but yet for some reason, that standard is applied to gun control by conservatives. We've let you turn the conversation into "well if it doesn't take EVERY gun out of the hands of criminals, then its not worth doing ANY gun control." That's preposterous, and completely counter-intuitive. It is absolutely true that with effective legislation, we could drastically reduce the numbers of guns that end up in the hands of criminals. And that's pushed back against because of ideology and lies that have been distributed by the very people that make billions in the gun industry. Its asinine and grossly corrupt.

And I'm surprised that in a law enforcement-centered community, there are so many people that want to do nothing to ensure that police officers encounter less armed criminals. Blows my mind.

Edited June 21, 20169 yr by Riley24

19 minutes ago, Riley24 said:

Which is incredibly difficult, especially compared to how easy it is to drive across state lines with a trunk full of guns. Its impossible to completely eliminate the possibility of smuggling, no matter how good a country's border security is. But products become more expensive as it gets harder and harder to smuggle them. Its not inconceivable that many criminals simply wouldn't be able to afford the few guns that are being smuggled in.

We don't expect 100% effectiveness from any other program. but yet for some reason, that standard is applied to gun control by conservatives. We've let you turn the conversation into "well if it doesn't take EVERY gun out of the hands of criminals, then its not worth doing ANY gun control." That's preposterous, and completely counter-intuitive. It is absolutely true that with effective legislation, we could drastically reduce the numbers of guns that end up in the hands of criminals. And that's pushed back against because of ideology and lies that have been distributed by the very people that make billions in the gun industry. Its asinine and grossly corrupt.

And I'm surprised that in a law enforcement-centered community, there are so many people that want to do nothing to ensure that police officers encounter less armed criminals. Blows my mind.

Incredibly difficult but not impossible. However what will be impossible would be for LAW-ABIDING citizens to arm themselves if that was to be reality.

Criminals will ALWAYS find a way to get their hands on guns. NO LAW WILL PREVENT THIS!

Cops aren't perfect I would rather civilians arm themselves and be PROACTIVE in preventing crime rather than expecting officers to always put their lives on the line for their sake. (I am thinking about officers lives and safety)

The only person, worth protecting you, should first and foremost be yourself.  

Edited June 21, 20169 yr by Prophet

8 minutes ago, Prophet said:

Incredibly difficult but not impossible. However what will be impossible would be for LAW-ABIDING citizens to arm themselves if that was to be reality.

How so? No one is talking about banning guns. Law abiding citizens that can pass background checks wouldn't have any issue.

10 minutes ago, Prophet said:

Criminals will ALWAYS find a way to get their hands on guns. NO LAW WILL PREVENT THIS!

We don't expect 100% effectiveness from any of our programs or laws, why would you expect it from gun laws? And its simply not true that criminals will "ALWAYS" find a way to get their hands on guns. Guns don't appear in their hands out of thin air, they come from things like straw purchases and private sales, for example. How would a law banning unchecked private sales NOT prevent some criminals from getting guns?

11 minutes ago, Prophet said:

Cops aren't perfect I would rather civilians arm themselves and be PROACTIVE in preventing crime rather than expecting officers to always put their lives on the line for their sake. (I am thinking about officers lives and safety)

The only person, worth protecting you, should first and foremost be yourself.  

But you're simply not getting it. You're arguing against laws that make it harder for criminals to get guns, you're not advocating for officer safety. You're advocating for inaction because "hey, gun control won't stop every criminal from getting a gun". Also, you're putting a lot of trust in armed civilians with no standard for safety training or anything of the sort. With our crazy high numbers of accidental deaths, maybe rethink that blind trust...

2 minutes ago, Riley24 said:

Clearly you have never been presented with the startling statistic that 232,000 (Two-Hundred Thirty-Two THOUSAND) firearms are stolen every year in the U.S!

CRIMINALS WILL ALWAYS GET THEIR HANDS ON GUNS!

I personally think that some interpret the second amendment too literally. You have to keep in mind that it was written in a much different time and place. Its 2016 the United States has the worlds strongest military and competent law enforcement agencies that can respond to active shooter situations in minutes. 

Lets be rational here we already have trained professionals to ensure that the public is safe we don't need civilians with minimal to no training everywhere with loaded guns. 

Accidents happen and it breaks my heart when i see them on news children killing their friends or siblings or even their parents. How do you even explain to your child that their mother or father is dead because of them? 

And then you have armed civilians trying to play hero it doesn't always have a happy ending I recall the incident in Wal-Mart where an armed civilian attempted to engage the guy who had just killed two Las Vegas police officers and was killed by his female accomplice. If he wouldn't have acted he would still be alive today, and that is my point we cant have civilians blinding running into situations that they have no training nor knowledge of. 

If your against  gun control that is fine, calm down the government isn't going to take your guns away and most likely wont make it harder for you to get new ones.

If your for gun control that is fine too, just dont expect changes to come quick or drastically.

I personally own a gun so Im not against guns i keep it at home for my personal protection, it never leaves my home. I purchased the gun because I lived in a rough neighborhood with frequent shootings and my home had been burglarized previously. I have moved but i kept the gun because bad things can happen anywhere and i want to be prepared. 

I think we need to find a common ground in this debate and to me its a nation wide on  ban assault rifles such as the  used in this shooting. To me there is no rational or acceptable reason why a civilian needs to have a rifle in our society today. These weapons can inflict catastrophic damage in a matter of seconds as we have seen in recent history.

10 minutes ago, Prophet said:

Clearly you have never been presented with the startling statistic that 232,000 (Two-Hundred Thirty-Two THOUSAND) firearms are stolen every year in the U.S!

CRIMINALS WILL ALWAYS GET THEIR HANDS ON GUNS!

And that's supposed to be an argument for arming the populace...? If anything, that proves that there's too many guns being distributed to the populace, who is clearly incapable of responsibly owning that many firearms.

Also, believing "CRIMINALS WILL ALWAYS GET THEIR HANDS ON GUNS!" is pretty convenient, because it means you don't have to even try to solve the problem. People will always do a lot of things, should we not have any laws at all? Why is it you think we have laws in the first place? You only apply that mentality to this issue, because you like guns and don't even want to talk about gun control. 

 

Edited June 21, 20169 yr by Riley24

1 minute ago, Riley24 said:

 If anything, that proves that there's too many guns being distributed to the populace, who is clearly incapable of owning that many firearms.

So if my gun gets stolen it's my fault?

If I get raped it's my fault?

4 minutes ago, Riley24 said:

because you like guns and don't even want to talk about gun control. 

I don't like guns! I hate the idea of having to own a gun. I hate the fact that my wife at any given moment can be taken by a criminal so she has to carry a firearm. Unfortunately, life is very real and dangerous so we choose to arm ourselves rather than rely on law enforcement. Its a CHOICE and a constitutional right.

Don't bother with a reply. Clearly you love having dogmatic conversations on forums to fulfill your ego. Go join an anti-gun club and try and change the laws if you feel so strongly about them but I am done wasting my time on you. Thankfully the majority of Americans love guns and the 2nd amendment so they're not going anywhere anytime soon (i.e ever).

Do I need to inform certain people in this topic, what respect actually is, because I see a lack of it in some posts.

Also, what is with all the posts in this Discussion. I see so many good points, quite logical points which are ignored, instead people pick out parts which ignite an argument, rather than provide to the topic at hand. 

1 minute ago, Ben said:

instead people pick out parts which ignite an argument, rather than provide to the topic at hand. 

Forums Bean, Forums.

I'm done with this thread and will unfollow it.