23 minutes ago, unr3al said:

Yup I mentioned the new fleet of vehicles and (few) new hires earlier. The city still has a long way to go.
 

 

I highly agree that EMS should have some kind of self defense available to them besides their fists and feet. But I'm not sure I'd want them clearing out a dangerous scene. That's not their job.

I hate to break it to ya but I don't think Detroit is going to be the same unless some major company would contribute to city growth again.

Look at Flint on the other hand, the city is crumbling apart at a point where they resorted using the Flint River and messed up the entire tap with toxic waste since the old lead pipes were leeched with corrosive Flint water. The switched back to the original Detroit water but the damage has been done it's going to take many years for the pipes to be replaced, which by the time the city would probably be a Ghost town since more Flint residents are leaving from the water crisis. I don't even think donations and contributing support is enough to help broken Flint.

I didn't mean that I'll take that back. I meant that the EMT should take a defensive side with some sort of weapons not clearing scenes lol xD 

 

Edited April 25, 20169 yr by wteoh1

Just now, wteoh1 said:

I hate to break it to ya but I don't think Detroit is going to be the same unless some major company would contribute to city growth again.

I'm under no illusions that Detroit will ever be "fixed". There will be no rebirth, despite inspirational songs/videos from residents.
 

Not much of a rap fan, but that's actually pretty good. (Thanks, Ubisoft. 'The Crew' is underrated.) All filmed on location.

2 minutes ago, unr3al said:

I'm under no illusions that Detroit will ever be "fixed". There will be no rebirth, despite inspirational songs/videos from residents.
 

Not much of a rap fan, but that's actually pretty good. (Thanks, Ubisoft. 'The Crew' is underrated.) All filmed on location.

Hahaha that made my day, I still doubt it'll be enough to help Detroit. 

 

Detroit is royally screwed. People just don't want to move back to Detroit, there's no incentive. 

This is not all that uncommon... I am a former Paramedic in RL ( and yes briefly an L.E.O.  I just in RL hated it.. Medic is more me.. )  We used to encounter all sorts of issues with civilians, be it rage, outright hostility and once I even had a full drug bag stolen at gun point.. ( I guess they learned that the drug bags are not where what they are after is stored.. )  not here anyway.

I ve had more than a few calls where the situation was so bad that we had to pull out until L.E. arrived..  and even worse ( ? ) I once had to use a real gangbanger I knew from previous calls for his family to chill his posse out. 

As far as breakdown of agencies.. that really just matters where you are.. Here the large cities have both F.D. ran ones.. and the county ones. Some of the smaller areas or rural counties use not only County ( normally very small and more often than not rely heavily on volunteers ) and private companies with a mutual aid agreement in place.  Also the lowest paying job in any form of Emergency Service on average.. Being in EMS often puts you in harms way... with little pay and often zero benefits. This is also why the turn over is so high.. that and you really have no hope for ever being promoted. You really only have two options... front of the truck.. back of the truck.. But the ones that stay.. stay because we care about the job.

 

** Thought just for info I would expand this a bit..  My first EMS job as an EMT paid $8.50 to start with no benefits until 90 day probationary was over. After that it went up to a whopping $9.00 with Self Pay Benefits.. not including any EMS charges.. those were free as long as they were in County Service use..  When I became a Medic.. being much more in demand of course.. I took a position making $10.50 with partial pay benefits.. then took all the advanced courses ( at my cost of course ) to not only be more in demand and a better Medic.. but get paid more. My final County years started me at $14.75 with supplemented benefits.. however I was one of only 4 Medics in the county. We worked 24 or 72 hour shifts.. and only two on duty for the whole County at any time.. with only 4 stations in the county. The other 2 stations were Basic Trucks.. meaning crewed by EMT's or one EMT and a First Responder Driver. Often I worked with a non EMT First Responder myself. Off duty we were expected to keep a stocked out bag in our POV and we had E Packs on POV's ( your own car ) like any volunteer Firefighter would.. I cant count the number of times I had to run an intercept in my car to meet an Ambulance for Medic Support in route to a Hospital.. closest Hospital ground transport at Code was still 45 mins from the center of the County.. don't even ask if out in the boondocks..

Don't even like to think about the times I had to standby.. knowing that people needed help.. and could not really do anything until Fire or Law were on scene..  Reinforced by the fact that if I got hurt trying to help.. no one else was able to come.. sleep with those memories.

EMS is a sad state overall. Everywhere from what I have learned in the US.  But how to fix it? Money? Sure.. but who pays? Most of my patients had no money anyway.. and no insurance.. Counties that are so small and can only afford 4 Medics at just $14.. how do they get more? It's a struggle to keep the drugs stocked.. not to mention the trucks running.

Then as I said.. it's hard to keep staff.. the money is awful. The hours horrid. The danger real. Zero promotion chance.. I stayed because I loved it. But I also had already retired from the Army.. so how do you keep people in the field??

Edited April 27, 20169 yr by Jeorg

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 11:24 PM, wteoh1 said:

* Snipped*  I didn't mean that I'll take that back. I meant that the EMT should take a defensive side with some sort of weapons not clearing scenes lol xD 

 

But that creates a catch 22 also. If a weapon is available, it not only begs to be used, but if is known to be there.. and it would not stay a secret that EMS is even defensively armed.. then people who have any intention of harm come with that knowledge. Plus the core of EMS is still medicine.. and that still includes do no harm. ( That can be interpreted to just patients.. but not a popular idea amongst Medics/EMT's to create patients... ) So how do you set a limit? You arm even defensively when is the pull out? When is the force to protect yourself, your crew and the patient limit reached? As is now part of any Official County / FD Dept Service ( here at least ) training is to ' un-train ' that desire to ' be a hero '. EMS is not equipped to run into burning buildings.. so you may hear the cries inside.. but your only creating another casualty running in.. we don't jump in the water unless your on a rescue truck and know what your doing with the right gear.. more than a few Dead Medics / EMT's serve that lesson well in heroism. The beaten into you with no mercy, and for good reason key is this order: Safety of you. Safety of crew. Patients. Sounds harsh, but without that your not helping anyone.. a downed medic / EMT is just another patient. And that is zero benefit to anyone.

More than once, as I've said earlier.. despite what I wanted to do, or my partner, pull out was the only option.. pull out in any means needed, even if your dragging a patient behind you.. better to maybe hurt them a little more than see them.. or you.. hurt. Or even more likely if its that bad.. dead.

18 hours ago, Jeorg said:

** Thought just for info I would expand this a bit..  My first EMS job as an EMT paid $8.50 to start with no benefits until 90 day probationary was over. After that it went up to a whopping $9.00 with Self Pay Benefits.. not including any EMS charges.. those were free as long as they were in County Service use..  When I became a Medic.. being much more in demand of course.. I took a position making $10.50 with partial pay benefits.. then took all the advanced courses ( at my cost of course ) to not only be more in demand and a better Medic.. but get paid more. My final County years started me at $14.75 with supplemented benefits.. however I was one of only 4 Medics in the county. We worked 24 or 72 hour shifts.. and only two on duty for the whole County at any time.. with only 4 stations in the county. The other 2 stations were Basic Trucks.. meaning crewed by EMT's or one EMT and a First Responder Driver. Often I worked with a non EMT First Responder myself. Off duty we were expected to keep a stocked out bag in our POV and we had E Packs on POV's ( your own car ) like any volunteer Firefighter would.. I cant count the number of times I had to run an intercept in my car to meet an Ambulance for Medic Support in route to a Hospital.. closest Hospital ground transport at Code was still 45 mins from the center of the County.. don't even ask if out in the boondocks..

Don't even like to think about the times I had to standby.. knowing that people needed help.. and could not really do anything until Fire or Law were on scene..  Reinforced by the fact that if I got hurt trying to help.. no one else was able to come.. sleep with those memories.

Then as I said.. it's hard to keep staff.. the money is awful. The hours horrid. The danger real. Zero promotion chance.. I stayed because I loved it. But I also had already retired from the Army.. so how do you keep people in the field??

Sorry to hear of those bad conditions. In my state, working more than 24 hours in a row is illegal, and beyond that companies are required to give you a minimum of 7 hours between shifts in order for you to get some sleep. Most people in any emergency worker job do 10-12 hour shifts, 24 hours shifts as an EMT or Medic are optional for those who want to only work 2-3 days a week. EMT starting salary here is  around what you made at your peak, apparently ($14-15 an hour for no experience EMT's), and the state will provide  you with health care if your company won't and you make mediocre or low wages. Medics in my area make a decent bit more, but it's still well below what I think they should make considering they're basically pocket doctors who can make the difference between somebody dying in agony or getting a speedy trip to the local trauma center with a good pain killer IV drip in them. An average medic would probably get about $40,000-45,000 per year working 40 hours a week.

Obviously the real money in any emergency service job is in the overtime, which is easy to obtain in any branch (Police/Fire/EMS). I know of medics who make over $100,000 a year, but they're veterans of the job, and they work for their money.
 

14 hours ago, Jeorg said:

But that creates a catch 22 also. If a weapon is available, it not only begs to be used, but if is known to be there.. and it would not stay a secret that EMS is even defensively armed.. then people who have any intention of harm come with that knowledge. Plus the core of EMS is still medicine.. and that still includes do no harm. ( That can be interpreted to just patients.. but not a popular idea amongst Medics/EMT's to create patients... ) So how do you set a limit?

"Do no harm", as inspiring of a slogan as it is (in Latin or otherwise) is a doctor's oath, not one you take in other medical professions. It is however a motto to do your work by. That being said, being a U.S. citizen you should also be entitled to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" no matter who you are or what patch is on your work uniform. And you need to be alive and in good health to achieve that. The line you draw in the sand is the one that people step over when they put you and your partner in jeopardy. I agree that the psychology of having a weapon on your tool belt being detrimental to your image makes sense, but your good health is more important. A weapon can create patients, but so can an unpredictable patient or bystander. America is a strange country, and I think the unique circumstances emergency services operate under (1/3 people in this country are armed, drug use and abuse is continually worsening, the drugs themselves are getting much more potent), how they protect themselves should be different than other countries.

 

14 hours ago, Jeorg said:

More than once, as I've said earlier.. despite what I wanted to do, or my partner, pull out was the only option.. pull out in any means needed

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Edited April 28, 20169 yr by unr3al

21 hours ago, Jeorg said:

EMS is a sad state overall. Everywhere from what I have learned in the US.  But how to fix it? Money? Sure.. but who pays? Most of my patients had no money anyway.. and no insurance.. Counties that are so small and can only afford 4 Medics at just $14.. how do they get more? It's a struggle to keep the drugs stocked.. not to mention the trucks running.

 

Man, fuck that. That sounds like you live in Russia, seriously, with the only distinction being those POV cars, out here that doesn't exist. Other than that... Lowest pay, no personnel, huge unpaid overwork, rusty trucks 15 y.o., paying for courses out of your pocket, and facing real danger -- AND people work there because they CARE, and they truly are saviors.

Looks like wherever you go, things are pretty much the same. It's just in Russia the EMS system is free and is government-subsidized, in the States it's commercialized, but in the end there's no difference.

7 hours ago, unr3al said:

Obviously the real money in any emergency service job is in the overtime, which is easy to obtain in any branch (Police/Fire/EMS).   know of medics who make over $100,000 a year, but they're veterans of the job, and they work for their money.

 

Yes, if your able to work those hours the overtime does indeed make a difference. But at the cost of a family, like anything where your never home. Lost one of those to the job also.

AS far as illegal to work over 24. It may be. But there is no way to avoid it. Not feasible anyway. Unless, your on a call. ( happens all the time ) and your shift ends you just shut down the truck and go home? Walk off? I doubt it.  ( Sorry there Mr whateverinjuryyouhave my shifts up.. its Miller time.. someone will be along to help out soon..

7 hours ago, unr3al said:

7 hours ago, unr3al said:

"Do no harm", as inspiring of a slogan as it is (in Latin or otherwise) is a doctor's oath, not one you take in other medical professions. It is however a motto to do your work by. That being said, being a U.S. citizen you should also be entitled to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" no matter who you are or what patch is on your work uniform. And you need to be alive and in good health to achieve that. The line you draw in the sand is the one that people step over when they put you and your partner in jeopardy. I agree that the psychology of having a weapon on your tool belt being detrimental to your image makes sense, but your good health is more important. A weapon can create patients, but so can an unpredictable patient or bystander. America is a strange country, and I think the unique circumstances emergency services operate under (1/3 people in this country are armed, drug use and abuse is continually worsening, the drugs themselves are getting much more potent), how they protect themselves should be different than other countries.

 

 

Yes the actual oath of a Doctor. But if you work in any form of medicine, and you have not had it beaten into you, and you don't believe that the job is to save, not harm. Then your in the wrong field.  There is no position in Medicine that does not fall under a Doctor for area of practice. So you fall under that oath. No one but a Doctor is a Doctor, and everyone answers to one in their job.

 

There is no line to draw in the sand when your job is to save. Your looking at it, honestly, with the exact mentality that is trained out.  To withdraw from a situation that is not feasible bringing patients with you, or to not enter in the first place if you have zero business to be there is not cowardice, its only sense. Your not there to fight. Granted, it may be completely misunderstood that you cannot defend yourself. You can, you always have the legal right to do so. You have the legal right to do so for your patients. But that is a last resort. Not a go to. Providing weapons only bolsters that fight mentality. Besides.. if you must defend yourself. You have plenty available. But your not there to pull a ' last stand '.  Your not Police, your not Fire, your Medics / EMT's.  Your only there for one reason. To render aid.  If a hazardous situation is 100% that is why the Police and Fire have built in Paramedic assets.  As us old geezers would tell the young,, you want to bust heads and be a Medic.. join the Sheriffs Rapid Response. ( SWAT )

7 hours ago, unr3al said:

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

LOL.. That is.. perfect.

4 hours ago, Hastings said:

Man, fuck that. That sounds like you live in Russia, seriously, with the only distinction being those POV cars, out here that doesn't exist. Other than that... Lowest pay, no personnel, huge unpaid overwork, rusty trucks 15 y.o., paying for courses out of your pocket, and facing real danger -- AND people work there because they CARE, and they truly are saviors.

Looks like wherever you go, things are pretty much the same. It's just in Russia the EMS system is free and is government-subsidized, in the States it's commercialized, but in the end there's no difference.

Well, like a lot of things in the states.. it's also a giant world of difference. Making $45 dollars an hour for example in New York sounds great!!! But the cost of living is also outrageous.. so its not so much as it sounds. ( That's a paraphrase.. I have no idea how much they make )

But I am in West Virginia. Now this is a state of amazing differences, often only separated by a large hill.  As I had mentioned, we have some cities that you would not ( and some do not ) know what the majority of the state is like. Right down to real gangers.. then you have the out there boonies. As I had also mentioned. You can literally pass from absolute poverty to mansions on the hill en route to the hospital. From backwoods coalfields and a completely different language to ' normal ' America. One of the reasons I chose to spend my longest time out in the boonies. Call it ' savior ' mentality  or do gooder. Not a lot of people would stay, nor come. I loved it out there. Ok, I do admit a big portion of it was the rush.. out there.. its you, your partner, and the truck. No one to call for help, and totally on you. Maybe some extra EMT's on the local Fire.. maybe some EMT State Trooper or County Sheriff.. but ultimately.. the Medic, skill and fast thinking. It's addictive.

Completely forgot about this thread. My how time flies.

 

On 4/28/2016 at 10:35 AM, Ersteman said:

AS far as illegal to work over 24. It may be. But there is no way to avoid it. Not feasible anyway. Unless, your on a call. ( happens all the time ) and your shift ends you just shut down the truck and go home? Walk off? I doubt it.  ( Sorry there Mr whateverinjuryyouhave my shifts up.. its Miller time.. someone will be along to help out soon..

Nobody said that, but around here, Ambulance companies are well staffed and areas of operations overlap, so you do get to go home on time or when your last run is finished, as a minimum number of ambulances must be running at all times. I can foresee states with lower populations and hospitals further apart having issues, but EMS audits are supposed to be conducted regularly for that reason, along with some others.
 

On 4/28/2016 at 10:35 AM, Ersteman said:

Yes the actual oath of a Doctor. But if you work in any form of medicine, and you have not had it beaten into you, and you don't believe that the job is to save, not harm. Then your in the wrong field.  There is no position in Medicine that does not fall under a Doctor for area of practice. So you fall under that oath. No one but a Doctor is a Doctor, and everyone answers to one in their job.

Having those principles is important in the field, but so is keeping yourself safe. If the rescuer is disabled, then there will be no rescue. Not only for that patient, but also other ones after that call is over. That's not fair to everyone else who calls 911 for medical help. Self preservation needs to be considered in any job field, regardless of whether you're an emergency worker or not. A lot of people love to debate me on police work and say that more garbageman and taxi drivers die each year, which may be true. But those people aren't provided with tools to keep themselves safe, or protocols to follow that help reduce accidents. As an example, a garbageman does not get a vehicle with extremely bright flashing LED lights to warn motorists, nor do they park strategically on the side of the road to minimize the risk of getting hit. Garbage trucks are also not considered an emergency vehicle by the law, so there are no penalties for driving like an ass**** near one. Those are just a couple of examples. Fatalities and injuries will be reduced if the demand for change is there.
 

On 4/28/2016 at 10:35 AM, Ersteman said:

There is no line to draw in the sand when your job is to save. Your looking at it, honestly, with the exact mentality that is trained out.  To withdraw from a situation that is not feasible bringing patients with you, or to not enter in the first place if you have zero business to be there is not cowardice, its only sense. Your not there to fight. Granted, it may be completely misunderstood that you cannot defend yourself. You can, you always have the legal right to do so. You have the legal right to do so for your patients. But that is a last resort. Not a go to. Providing weapons only bolsters that fight mentality. Besides.. if you must defend yourself. You have plenty available. But your not there to pull a ' last stand '.  Your not Police, your not Fire, your Medics / EMT's.  Your only there for one reason. To render aid.  If a hazardous situation is 100% that is why the Police and Fire have built in Paramedic assets.  As us old geezers would tell the young,, you want to bust heads and be a Medic.. join the Sheriffs Rapid Response. ( SWAT )

Understand that physical threats can and do come from anywhere, and occur everywhere. The scenario you seem to be playing in your head when you think of physical aggression is, if I had to guess, when you're in somebody's home where you can freely leave and go back to the ambulance. This does not account for when you're already treating somebody in the back of your ambulance. You can't just run away and abandon the vehicle. And while whacking somebody over the head with your first-in bag (which has an oxygen tank in it) is indeed a method of defending yourself in a pinch (that was literally taught to us in EMT training), an actual tool that's meant to temporarily disable the ability to fight is a much better, and safer idea than trying to crack someone's skull. I disagree with your assessment that equipping EMTs and Medics with tasers would bolster that mentality. I feel it would give them a fighting chance to avoid on the job injury from a place it should never come from; the patient. It accounts for a very large percentage of all EMS on the job injuries each year, and I foresee that number climbing as drug use increases; especially synthetics which are undeniably out of control when it comes to both potency and availability.

I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree on this.

Edited June 20, 20169 yr by unr3al

Arming EMTs is a one-way uphill route. First comes pepper spray, then a tazer, and before you know the driver has a shotgun and EMTs have sidearms, because the violence will not decrease.

I think that's might be a suitable path for the US though, where even a mental hospital security officer is considered a LEO, but the overall idea of medics having weapons just sounds plain wrong to me.

Nothing new. Anytime you put on the uniform of a public servant, you can become a target of that same public.

A lot of FD's and EMS services in major metro areas are already starting to issue ballistic vests to their personnel. Just saw a news link a few days ago that Savannah GA is possibly considering their FD and EMS to have the option to arm themselves.

http://www.wtoc.com/story/32211052/savannah-prepared-if-tragedy-strikes