Fine, then have him step outside that bathroom and cuff him. Or at least pat him down. Let me tell you this, if they told him to put his hands on the wall and they were both there, like they were in the video, and he reached for something in his waistband, they could both easily over power him and push him into the wall and prevent that from happening. You don't have to necessarily do it in a bathroom, but take him to a place where had room while maintaining constant eye contact. Right outside the bathroom or even front door would be fine, but I am trained to do it asap.

That's even worse. Now, worst case scenario, you're fighting in public with patrons of the restaurant sitting right there.

Me, personally, I never have a suspect put his hands on the wall, and I know a lot of departments starting to train like that. It gives the suspect immense leverage to shove off from and fight, especially in a crowded or confined space where it's easy to fall down or seriously injure yourself.

 

Besides, I was trained to do any investigation and detention away from the public, as to minimize interference or compromising the public's safety. They were doing exactly that. He was cooperative, following the officer's commands the entire time. He posed no immediate threat to the officers, and was not hostile at all.

Fine, then have him step outside that bathroom and cuff him. Or at least pat him down. Let me tell you this, if they told him to put his hands on the wall and they were both there, like they were in the video, and he reached for something in his waistband, they could both easily over power him and push him into the wall and prevent that from happening. You don't have to necessarily do it in a bathroom, but take him to a place where had room while maintaining constant eye contact. Right outside the bathroom or even front door would be fine, but I am trained to do it asap.

Not sure who trained you to "do it asap" but that is bad advice. There are many reasons not to handcuff a suspect immediately, too many for me to list. If he reached for a pistol in his waistband would they have a fast enough reaction to overpower him? It only takes a couple seconds for him to aim and pull the trigger. As Pavelow stated having a suspect put their hands up against the wall is a bad idea and trying to detain someone in a public area (if it can be avoided) is an even worse idea. What if he drew his pistol while they were attempting to detain him right outside the bathroom? Then you would be shooting with lots of innocent people around. You keep saying that all they had to do is overpower him as if that is an easy task, this makes me strongly believe that you have never been involved in fighting someone who is resisting arrest. It isn't easy, even with two people, to detain someone who is fighting for their freedom and this guy was a fairly big dude so he could easily get enough of an upper hand to fire off a few rounds if he wanted too.

Me, personally, I never have a suspect put his hands on the wall, and I know a lot of departments starting to train like that. It gives the suspect immense leverage to shove off from and fight, especially in a crowded or confined space where it's easy to fall down or seriously injure yourself.

I know lots of agencies have gone away from that too. They taught me the same thing in the police academy and for the same reason you just listed. They taught us to never have them put their hands on the wall and even to not lean or press them up against the wall because that gives them something to push off of and gives them more power. If you keep them away from walls/cars/etc, they have nothing to push off of and they are easier to knock over since they have nothing to keep them up.

Not sure who trained you to "do it asap" but that is bad advice. There are many reasons not to handcuff a suspect immediately, too many for me to list. If he reached for a pistol in his waistband would they have a fast enough reaction to overpower him? It only takes a couple seconds for him to aim and pull the trigger. As Pavelow stated having a suspect put their hands up against the wall is a bad idea and trying to detain someone in a public area (if it can be avoided) is an even worse idea. What if he drew his pistol while they were attempting to detain him right outside the bathroom? Then you would be shooting with lots of innocent people around. You keep saying that all they had to do is overpower him as if that is an easy task, this makes me strongly believe that you have never been involved in fighting someone who is resisting arrest. It isn't easy, even with two people, to detain someone who is fighting for their freedom and this guy was a fairly big dude so he could easily get enough of an upper hand to fire off a few rounds if he wanted too.

I know lots of agencies have gone away from that too. They taught me the same thing in the police academy and for the same reason you just listed. They taught us to never have them put their hands on the wall and even to not lean or press them up against the wall because that gives them something to push off of and gives them more power. If you keep them away from walls/cars/etc, they have nothing to push off of and they are easier to knock over since they have nothing to keep them up.

That would literally make no sense if he pulled the weapon while they were detaining him because you go for the hands first. Two cops over powered the man and unless it took these two cops a decade to detain the man, then it's not a bad idea to detain someone in public, It's done all the time. It's not bad advise, and I was trained to do it "ASAP" because of safety before investigation always. Sure, small bathroom, less space, two officers verses one suspect. And officers don't have to go hands either, if he pulled the gun out, they back up and draw as well.

That would literally make no sense if he pulled the weapon while they were detaining him because you go for the hands first. Two cops over powered the man and unless it took these two cops a decade to detain the man, then it's not a bad idea to detain someone in public, It's done all the time. It's not bad advise, and I was trained to do it "ASAP" because of safety before investigation always. Sure, small bathroom, less space, two officers verses one suspect. And officers don't have to go hands either, if he pulled the gun out, they back up and draw as well.

And what would happen when the suspect pulls the gun quicker than the officers and manages to get a few shots off? Now we have injured officers, a suspect at large firing live rounds, and a situation that got out of hand when it really didn't need to.

That would literally make no sense if he pulled the weapon while they were detaining him because you go for the hands first. Two cops over powered the man and unless it took these two cops a decade to detain the man, then it's not a bad idea to detain someone in public, It's done all the time. It's not bad advise, and I was trained to do it "ASAP" because of safety before investigation always. Sure, small bathroom, less space, two officers verses one suspect. And officers don't have to go hands either, if he pulled the gun out, they back up and draw as well.

You think that he is just going to let them grab his hands? Do you think that once you make a move for someone's hands they are just going to remain still and let you grab them? I don't even know what you are saying in your second sentence. You keep referring to your training, what training have you received and who did you receive it from? Apparently who ever trained you didn't teach you that handcuffing someone isn't always the first priority and it can actually make things worse. Using your logic I should handcuff every person I come in contact if I suspect they committed a crime?

That would literally make no sense if he pulled the weapon while they were detaining him because you go for the hands first. Two cops over powered the man and unless it took these two cops a decade to detain the man, then it's not a bad idea to detain someone in public, It's done all the time. It's not bad advise, and I was trained to do it "ASAP" because of safety before investigation always. Sure, small bathroom, less space, two officers verses one suspect. And officers don't have to go hands either, if he pulled the gun out, they back up and draw as well.

Do you realize how long it actually takes to draw your weapon, when the adrenaline is pumping, and you were nowhere prepared to draw? The officer in the video can thank dumb luck that he wasn't shot (even if it wasn't a real gun). If the suspect was intent on taking an officer with him with a real gun, he could have gotten 2 or 3 shots off before he was able to draw, and his female partner seemed to struggle with the retention band.

You think that he is just going to let them grab his hands? Do you think that once you make a move for someone's hands they are just going to remain still and let you grab them? I don't even know what you are saying in your second sentence. You keep referring to your training, what training have you received and who did you receive it from? Apparently who ever trained you didn't teach you that handcuffing someone isn't always the first priority and it can actually make things worse. Using your logic I should handcuff every person I come in contact if I suspect they committed a crime?

Just out of curiosity, were you prior law enforcement before the Army?

Edited July 14, 201510 yr by Pavelow

Just out of curiosity, were you prior law enforcement before the Army?

Not exactly. I was a sheriff's explorer with my sheriff's office for 3 years and accumulated about 2700 hours riding with patrol deputies during that time (mostly on the 5PM-5AM shift, my favorite). After that I spent some time at a university to try and get my B.S. but decided I couldn't wait any longer to get back into law enforcement so I enrolled in the police academy in the beginning of 2012 and graduated in August of that year. Spent about a year looking for an agency to work for but wasn't having much luck (most likely due to how young I was at the time) so after about a year of no full time employment I decided to join the military (for more reasons than just a paycheck). My contract with the Army is up in July of 2017 at which point I plan on transferring to the Coast Guard as a reservist (I have found that the Army isn't really my cup of tea other than being Airborne) and getting hired with a law enforcement agency in the state where my LE certification is.

Not exactly. I was a sheriff's explorer with my sheriff's office for 3 years and accumulated about 2700 hours riding with patrol deputies during that time (mostly on the 5PM-5AM shift, my favorite). After that I spent some time at a university to try and get my B.S. but decided I couldn't wait any longer to get back into law enforcement so I enrolled in the police academy in the beginning of 2012 and graduated in August of that year. Spent about a year looking for an agency to work for but wasn't having much luck (most likely due to how young I was at the time) so after about a year of no full time employment I decided to join the military (for more reasons than just a paycheck). My contract with the Army is up in July of 2017 at which point I plan on transferring to the Coast Guard as a reservist (I have found that the Army isn't really my cup of tea other than being Airborne) and getting hired with a law enforcement agency in the state where my LE certification is.

Figured you had some past experience with LE. I had my enlistment cut short to due to a lot of politics within the Air Force (luckily, I still got an honorable discharge), but fortunately was hired by the Highway Patrol where I live and now I'm at their academy.  Good luck in transferring over to the CG, and finding a job where you want, man.

 

Good and justifiable shoot all the way around!!! Im glad the officers are ok and only the bad guy got smoked. This just goes to show how a simple interaction with someone can turn deadly in a matter of seconds. I saw a shorter version of this on youtube but this video is much better

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Edited November 14, 20178 yr by Account Deleted

Notice: viewer discretion is advised

Anyone else notice at 56 second the Female officer accidently draws her tazer then reverts to her service pistol. Life/Death decisions like that get officers killed.