It is very possible that he ordered her out of the car based on his emotions. However, she would have more of a case for herself if she did not resist. Legally she was in the wrong and the officer was right, however screwed up you think that is it is the truth. Unfortunately even if an officer is out of line or clearly wrong the best course of action is to comply with them and fight it in court. I know that sounds really shitty, and it is, but there isn't really any other way of dealing with that kind of situation.

Yeah, I know that.  I just think it shouldn't reach that point in the first place.

That is not why Harry Mimms was ordered out of the car, the officers ordered him out of the car and upon him exiting the vehicle noticed a bulge which allowed them to conduct a pat down in accordance with Terry v. Ohio. You expect officers to explain case law to people who are belligerent? You want the officer to stop and say "according to Pennsylvania v. Mimms I am legally allowed to order you out of the vehicle so you must comply"? Even if the officer did do that do you really think this lady (or almost any other person) would give two shits about case law? No, they would still refuse.

You're right, not every single American across the country cares about the complexity of case law. But he could have at least made an effort to diffuse the situation by being more up-front with her. And funny that you feel comfortable making generalizations about Americans as a whole, but not about police officers. In this sitaution, do you think that the officer gave two shits about case law? Or is he just a bully with a badge?

Yes, he was allowed to ask her to get out of the car. He could have at least made an effort to diffuse the situation, but he never even tried that. He made her more and more agitated. He caused this entire situation to unfold, he could have just a rational human being and given her the ticket (or the warning he apparently was going to give). But her real crime was disrespecting a police officer. The officer made the choice to knowingly escalate the situation for no reason other than to harass her, because he was mad she didn't put out her cigarette. Law enforcement has to be better than that.

I am concerned with the legaility of the rest of his actions. He has the right to ask her to stop smoking and she has the right to say no. There is nothing illegal about asking someone to put a cigarette out.

I did watch the whole video, the 50 minute long video that shows the entire stop. The video you posted is only a portion of the stop and also obviously biased.

But its clear that he asked her to step out because she said no to putting out her cigarette, so why? What was he going to do with her out of the car? Put her in cuffs for not putting out her cigarette?

And the facts have a bias. He lied multiple times in his account of what happened, either in the 10 or 50 minute version.

You're right, not every single American across the country cares about the complexity of case law. But he could have at least made an effort to diffuse the situation by being more up-front with her. And funny that you feel comfortable making generalizations about Americans as a whole, but not about police officers. In this sitaution, do you think that the officer gave two shits about case law? Or is he just a bully with a badge?

Yes, he was allowed to ask her to get out of the car. He could have at least made an effort to diffuse the situation, but he never even tried that. He made her more and more agitated. He caused this entire situation to unfold, he could have just a rational human being and given her the ticket (or the warning he apparently was going to give). But her real crime was disrespecting a police officer. The officer made the choice to knowingly escalate the situation for no reason other than to harass her, because he was mad she didn't put out her cigarette. Law enforcement has to be better than that.

But its clear that he asked her to step out because she said no to putting out her cigarette, so why? What was he going to do with her out of the car? Put her in cuffs for not putting out her cigarette?

And the facts have a bias. He lied multiple times in his account of what happened, either in the 10 or 50 minute version.

My generalization was about people who do not listen to lawful commands, not about Americans as a whole. People who do not want to listen to a lawful order from a police officer probably wouldn't change their mind if the officer stopped and explained the legality of that order.

There is no way of knowing why he asked her to step out. He could have asked her to put out the cigarette because he was about to have her to step out, it isn't necessarily because she refused to put out the cigarette.

Police are no longer public officials, but rather government officials. They have become a secret society with a secret agenda. The people no longer pay their taxes, the state or government does. :) Didn't think I knew that huh? I have my own fences. 

This made me puke in my mouth a little. I won't address the rest of your comment, because I don't have the patience to do so at this current time; and I'm not in the best mood... but this... I have to address this.

I sincerely do hope and pray to the Lord that you aren't serious when you state this. The police are the people, I don't understand why people seem to think that police are robots or something. They have wives, husbands, kids, homes and family just as we do. I'm sure that if the police were commanded to do something notably wrong or abusive, most would be willing to lay down their badge then act dishonorably and betray what they stand for and defend. I don't understand how anyone could think that the police are a "secret society". I honestly don't even know what that means.

I think he is referring to the Illuminati and new world order garbage. The issue here is race. If it was a white person this wouldn't have been news. It's because our countries ancestors were ass hats and enslaved the African American population in our country back in the day, and the segregation issue back in the 50s, so now the 21st Century has to suffer with this BS. I will admit some officers go over board and do drastic things, and that is partly because some police departments prefer quantity over quality. So their training isn't made clear enough or things are left out. I honestly think that she died from internal bleeding because her head got smashed on the ground, and she stated that she couldn't even hear from one side out of her ear. Humans make mistakes, and this is what happens. It is what it is. May she RIP and let's hope that things like this don't happen often.

I honestly think that she died from internal bleeding because her head got smashed on the ground, and she stated that she couldn't even hear from one side out of her ear. Humans make mistakes, and this is what happens. It is what it is. May she RIP and let's hope that things like this don't happen often.

She committed suicide by hanging herself. While the investigation isn't finished all the evidence appears to be pointing to that being the cause of death and not a homicide like her family is claiming.

She committed suicide by hanging herself. While the investigation isn't finished all the evidence appears to be pointing to that being the cause of death and not a homicide like her family is claiming.

Oh okay. Didn't hear the full story. Also, don't get me wrong, I don't think the police did it either. Like you said, just a family making a larger deal than it really is.

My generalization was about people who do not listen to lawful commands, not about Americans as a whole. People who do not want to listen to a lawful order from a police officer probably wouldn't change their mind if the officer stopped and explained the legality of that order.

There is no way of knowing why he asked her to step out. He could have asked her to put out the cigarette because he was about to have her to step out, it isn't necessarily because she refused to put out the cigarette.

Your generalization referred to Sandra Bland and "most people". Perhaps you forgot to specify, but that seemed fairly clear to me. The problem is that there is a history of black communities being mistreated by police, so when Sandra Bland starts off being agitated, she's not unjustified in feeling that way. It is the officer's responsibility to maintain order during in an interaction and not endanger himself or the suspect needlessly. If he had given her a ticket for merging into a lane without signalling to get out of the way of a police car, she would've been on her way to her new job and would've complained to her co-workers about the asshole cop that pulled her over. It is entirely the officer's fault for letting the situation get out of hand, and you shouldn't be defending him or his actions, no matter what your opinion on police is. 

You can clearly tell with how quickly and bluntly he said it that he was pissed off that she didn't put out her cigarette. Come on, you can tell. It honestly seems like you're making up hypothetical situations that even the officer hasn't reported, and offering them as explanations. We DO know what his behavior and choices were, and what he reported to his superiors.

Your generalization referred to Sandra Bland and "most people". Perhaps you forgot to specify, but that seemed fairly clear to me. The problem is that there is a history of black communities being mistreated by police, so when Sandra Bland starts off being agitated, she's not unjustified in feeling that way. It is the officer's responsibility to maintain order during in an interaction and not endanger himself or the suspect needlessly. If he had given her a ticket for merging into a lane without signalling to get out of the way of a police car, she would've been on her way to her new job and would've complained to her co-workers about the asshole cop that pulled her over. It is entirely the officer's fault for letting the situation get out of hand, and you shouldn't be defending him or his actions, no matter what your opinion on police is. 

You can clearly tell with how quickly and bluntly he said it that he was pissed off that she didn't put out her cigarette. Come on, you can tell. It honestly seems like you're making up hypothetical situations that even the officer hasn't reported, and offering them as explanations. We DO know what his behavior and choices were, and what he reported to his superiors.

I already specified who I was referring to, not going to repeat myself. Yes, there is a long history of black people being mistreated does that mean they should be all pissed off at every police officer? I am a white guy, does that mean that black people should be pissed at me because of other white people who are assholes? So because that man wears a uniform and a badge Sandra Bland (and any other black person) should be justified in being agitated and pissed off anytime they have contact with a police officer?

I'm not making up a situation, I am simply offering alternate explanations. I already said there is no way of knowing the real reason he ordered her out of the car. The only person that truly knows why is the officer himself. Was he being truthful when telling his supervisors what his reason was? No one can know.

I already specified who I was referring to, not going to repeat myself. Yes, there is a long history of black people being mistreated does that mean they should be all pissed off at every police officer? I am a white guy, does that mean that black people should be pissed at me because of other white people who are assholes? So because that man wears a uniform and a badge Sandra Bland (and any other black person) should be justified in being agitated and pissed off anytime they have contact with a police officer?

I'm amazed that you're more concerned about how nice black people are to police officers, than how many black people are killed by police officers. Not everyone will be nice to cops, but that's part of their job. I could care less about how polite black people are to police. And its not about justifying someones emotions, because not everyone is rational or reasonable. People sometimes get pissed when they get pulled over, that's human nature. We can't control human nature. We can, however, control public officials who's job it is to deal with those people.

I'm not making up a situation, I am simply offering alternate explanations. I already said there is no way of knowing the real reason he ordered her out of the car. The only person that truly knows why is the officer himself. Was he being truthful when telling his supervisors what his reason was? No one can know.

Was Sandra Bland an undercover CIA agent? No one can know. 

Lets focus on what we do know, which is that this officer told multiple lies, which means everything he says in the tape should be questioned. And since we can see how visibly angry he is that she won't put out her cigarette, and how soon after her refusal does he order her to get out. What's puzzling is that even though we both know he's legally justified in ordering her out, you're still trying to defend him. Why?

 

I'm amazed that you're more concerned about how nice black people are to police officers, than how many black people are killed by police officers. Not everyone will be nice to cops, but that's part of their job. I could care less about how polite black people are to police. And its not about justifying someones emotions, because not everyone is rational or reasonable. People sometimes get pissed when they get pulled over, that's human nature. We can't control human nature. We can, however, control public officials who's job it is to deal with those people.

Was Sandra Bland an undercover CIA agent? No one can know. 

Lets focus on what we do know, which is that this officer told multiple lies, which means everything he says in the tape should be questioned. And since we can see how visibly angry he is that she won't put out her cigarette, and how soon after her refusal does he order her to get out. What's puzzling is that even though we both know he's legally justified in ordering her out, you're still trying to defend him. Why?

Where did I say I was concerned with how nice black people are to officers? Yet again you are putting words in my mouth. All I said was the fact that there is a rough history between police and black people doesn't mean that every black person should assume the cop that pulled them over is racist and out to get them. I never said I was more concerned with their attitude.

If you are just going to mock what I say then I'm just going to stop having this conversation. When I offer up alternate explanations I am being serious and realistic. But as I said in the other thread I am done with this. If you want to put words in my mouth and be disrespectful by mocking what I say then I am not interested in carrying on this debate. In the end it makes no difference to me what you opinion on the subject is, it has no effect on my life. When I take part in these discussions I am simply trying to enlighten others on different view points and trying to see if there is a point of view I am missing however I can clearly see this conversation is moving away from a debate and turning into flaming so I will just step away now.

 

I'm amazed that you're more concerned about how nice black people are to police officers, than how many black people are killed by police officers. Not everyone will be nice to cops, but that's part of their job. I could care less about how polite black people are to police. And its not about justifying someones emotions, because not everyone is rational or reasonable. People sometimes get pissed when they get pulled over, that's human nature. We can't control human nature. We can, however, control public officials who's job it is to deal with those people.

Was Sandra Bland an undercover CIA agent? No one can know. 

Lets focus on what we do know, which is that this officer told multiple lies, which means everything he says in the tape should be questioned. And since we can see how visibly angry he is that she won't put out her cigarette, and how soon after her refusal does he order her to get out. What's puzzling is that even though we both know he's legally justified in ordering her out, you're still trying to defend him. Why?

Where did I say I was concerned with how nice black people are to officers? Yet again you are putting words in my mouth. All I said was the fact that there is a rough history between police and black people doesn't mean that every black person should assume the cop that pulled them over is racist and out to get them. I never said I was more concerned with their attitude.

If you are just going to mock what I say then I'm just going to stop having this conversation. When I offer up alternate explanations I am being serious and realistic. But as I said in the other thread I am done with this. If you want to put words in my mouth and be disrespectful by mocking what I say then I am not interested in carrying on this debate. In the end it makes no difference to me what you opinion on the subject is, it has no effect on my life. When I take part in these discussions I am simply trying to enlighten others on different view points and trying to see if there is a point of view I am missing however I can clearly see this conversation is moving away from a debate and turning into flaming so I will just step away now.

Where did I say I was concerned with how nice black people are to officers? Yet again you are putting words in my mouth. All I said was the fact that there is a rough history between police and black people doesn't mean that every black person should assume the cop that pulled them over is racist and out to get them. I never said I was more concerned with their attitude.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm making an observation. When discussing relations between black communities and police, you chose to focus on the "burden" placed on police officers. Not once have you offered a suggestion for how police could improve or "be better going forward". You're never safe from the implications of your own words.

If you are just going to mock what I say then I'm just going to stop having this conversation. When I offer up alternate explanations I am being serious and realistic. But as I said in the other thread I am done with this. If you want to put words in my mouth and be disrespectful by mocking what I say then I am not interested in carrying on this debate. In the end it makes no difference to me what you opinion on the subject is, it has no effect on my life. When I take part in these discussions I am simply trying to enlighten others on different view points and trying to see if there is a point of view I am missing however I can clearly see this conversation is moving away from a debate and turning into flaming so I will just step away now.

What I'm mocking is the conservative ideology of "if you don't know everything, you're not allowed to say anything". You've been doing it from the start. You've questioned my age, my qualifications, and even the proven scientific evidence I've shown you. And another classic conservative ideology is the victim mentality, in which you are constantly convinced that others are out to twist your words. Again, you are never safe from the implications of your own words. I've included evidence that reflects on the nation-wide issue, and every time you have found a loophole, however factually based, in order to completely absolve the police of blame or wrong-doing in every situation. So please don't claim that all you're trying to bring objectivity, as you've shown none of your own.  

Edited August 12, 201510 yr by Riley24