On 8/31/2017 at 4:18 PM, LukeR said:

I work Security at a major hospital and it's kinda my discretion.  Being a reserve officer, I usually don't care.  Now if the officer is in plain clothes there's no reason for him to carry his firearm.  If he's in full uniform then absolutely.  I had a deputy come in plain clothes with his gun on him and I asked for ID and he threw yes literally threw his badge at me and I told him to take a hike and reported him to the Sheriff the next day for Assault.  Also assaulting Medical staff including Doctors, nurses and members of a hospital security force is a felony in my state. All I wanted to see was his badge to see what agency he was with then I probably wouldn't have given a shit if he carried his firearm.  

With all due respect, telling a plainclothes LEO he or she can't carry on your grounds is just as bad as what happened in the OP. As an RO, you should know that LEOs are always on duty. I'm not discrediting what you're saying about the badge part, but I'm pretty doubtful that the dude just chucked his shield at you like a fastball.

I guess it's at the discretion of the business owner. Their loss, I personally wouldn't have any issue with an armed officer in my business place.

9 hours ago, TA120 said:

With all due respect, telling a plainclothes LEO he or she can't carry on your grounds is just as bad as what happened in the OP. As an RO, you should know that LEOs are always on duty. I'm not discrediting what you're saying about the badge part, but I'm pretty doubtful that the dude just chucked his shield at you like a fastball.

Never said he did throw it at me like a fast ball.  I had it on video and my boss sent the video to the Sheriff and apologized and said he would handle it.

1 hour ago, LukeR said:

Never said he did throw it at me like a fast ball.  I had it on video and my boss sent the video to the Sheriff and apologized and said he would handle it.

The way you worded this sentence along with filing a complaint for an alleged assault, it sounds quite exaggerated; that, or there's a part of the story that isn't being told. There's "assault", and then there's assault. 

 

On 8/31/2017 at 4:18 PM, LukeR said:

I asked for ID and he threw yes literally threw his badge at me and I told him to take a hike and reported him to the Sheriff the next day for Assault.

Edited September 3, 20178 yr by TA120

5 hours ago, TA120 said:

The way you worded this sentence along with filing a complaint for an alleged assault, it sounds quite exaggerated; that, or there's a part of the story that isn't being told. There's "assault", and then there's assault. 

 

I don't believe you were there, so I'm not gonna argue with you over something that happened about a year ago and someone that wasn't there is trying to give their opinion on it.  We have a very good relationship with local law enforcement as we work together all the time.  Like I said, I generally don't care if they carry but if you're gonna be a dick about it when I ask to see your badge then you can bet your ass I'm going to report you.  A place of a private business is just like a private house.  That would be like me going into your house and throwing something at you when you asked for it.  Would you appreciate that very much?  I didnt think so, so now you see why i did what i did.  

32 minutes ago, LukeR said:

I don't believe you were there, so I'm not gonna argue with you over something that happened about a year ago and someone that wasn't there is trying to give their opinion on it. 

 

You posted about the incident on a public forum.  Whether you like it or not, you're going to get opinions.   Plain clothed officers who get pissy about having to show their badge are probably the ones who think all they are high and mighty, while you're nothing.  What did the Sheriff say/do? or did you never find out?

 

A bit of confusion, though.

 

Now if the officer is in plain clothes there's no reason for him to carry his firearm.  

 

All I wanted to see was his badge to see what agency he was with then I probably wouldn't have given a shit if he carried his firearm.  

 

The way you worded the first quote is that you don't think plain clothed officers should be carrying their firearm, and you explicitly said "kinda my discretion", as if you'd kick him out of the building for being plain clothed and having the weapon. 

2 hours ago, Kallus Rourke said:

 

You posted about the incident on a public forum.  Whether you like it or not, you're going to get opinions.   Plain clothed officers who get pissy about having to show their badge are probably the ones who think all they are high and mighty, while you're nothing.  What did the Sheriff say/do? or did you never find out?

 

A bit of confusion, though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The way you worded the first quote is that you don't think plain clothed officers should be carrying their firearm, and you explicitly said "kinda my discretion", as if you'd kick him out of the building for being plain clothed and having the weapon. 

The sheriff never said.  He just apologized for the deputies actions and said he would handle it and it won't happen again.

 

Yes it is my discretion to allow officers in plain clothes to carry their firearm or not.  What I'm saying is though since we have a good relationship with them we usually don't say anything about it as long as they have their badge visible.  Now we do ask to see their badge when they walk in because we can't read what it says on it.  For all we know that badge could say security on it and no one is allowed to have a firearm except us and law enforcement in or on our property.  We also has the officer to keep his badge visible if they are in plain clothes because otherwise we will get calls asking why someone is walking around with a gun.  It causes to many issues.  So we will usually politely ask them to keep their gun in their car.  Yes I know who they are but no one else does and it can make patients, visitors, and staff feel on edge.

2 hours ago, Kallus Rourke said:

 

You posted about the incident on a public forum.  Whether you like it or not, you're going to get opinions.   Plain clothed officers who get pissy about having to show their badge are probably the ones who think all they are high and mighty, while you're nothing.  What did the Sheriff say/do? or did you never find out?

 

A bit of confusion, though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The way you worded the first quote is that you don't think plain clothed officers should be carrying their firearm, and you explicitly said "kinda my discretion", as if you'd kick him out of the building for being plain clothed and having the weapon. 

What I'm getting at is it really just depends on the situation.  What I meant by the "they shouldn't wear a gun if they are in plain clothes" was like I said above "it puts staff, visitors, and patients on on edge." Or may make them feel uncomfortable is all.  That's all I meant by that.  Even though I know they are law enforcement others don't.  They may only see that gun and no badge.  

 

It also depends on the situation.  For example if they are wearing a gun and no badge visible I'll always ask to see ID.  Then if they show it I'll either ask why they are hear or ask them to keep it visible.  If they say they are here to see a friend or family member I'll usually ask them to leave their firearm in the car because theirs no point for them to carry it.  It's not like they are gonna need to shoot someone once they get up there.  Now if they are here for like an inmate or something to do some blood work for the jail then yeah that's perfectly fine.  The showing of the badge at all times though still applies.  We still ask them to keep their badge visible. 

4 hours ago, LukeR said:

Yes it is my discretion to allow officers in plain clothes to carry their firearm or not.  What I'm saying is though since we have a good relationship with them we usually don't say anything about it as long as they have their badge visible.  For all we know that badge could say security on it and no one is allowed to have a firearm except us and law enforcement in or on our property.

So, law enforcement are allowed to carry their firearms into the workplace but you prohibit them from doing so?

51 minutes ago, TheDivineHustle said:

So, law enforcement are allowed to carry their firearms into the workplace but you prohibit them from doing so?

 

If they're in plain clothes they're off-duty. And if they're off-duty, they don't need their firearm, therefore it's normal for someone to not want to see them. Even more so in a doctor office/hospital. They've nothing to fear for their life.

36 minutes ago, Hystery said:

 

If they're in plain clothes they're off-duty. And if they're off-duty, they don't need their firearm, therefore it's normal for someone to not want to see them. Even more so in a doctor office/hospital. They've nothing to fear for their life.

That is false, and I don't know a single police officer that would agree with that. Officers are always on-duty, even when out of uniform. That's why police officers are excluded from a lot of different gun laws across the country as compared to your regular citizen.  Even when they're off duty, they may still need theirfirearm, hence the whole concealed and open carry thing. 

 

Ummm... it's completely normal to see firearms in the US. If you like I can bring back some statistics on the percentages of Americans that agree that they're needed. I can also pull up some numbers of gun free zones in the US. Everyone always seems to disappear when the numbers come out. 

Edited September 3, 20178 yr by TheDivineHustle

17 minutes ago, TheDivineHustle said:

That is false, and I don't know a single police officer that would agree with that. Officers are always on-duty, even when out of uniform. That's why police officers are excluded from a lot of different gun laws across the country as compared to your regular citizen.  Even when they're off duty, they may still need theirfirearm, hence the whole concealed and open carry thing. 

 

Ummm... it's completely normal to see firearms in the US. If you like I can bring back some statistics on the percentages of Americans that agree that they're needed. I can also pull up some numbers of gun free zones in the US. Everyone always seems to disappear when the numbers come out. 

 

That's nice and all to have stats, but that's irrelevant to what I'm saying. You go to the doctor, you don't need your gun, cop or not. You're in plain cloth, you're off-duty. Therefore the owner has all rights to ask why there's a gun at your belt and to ask for a badge and ID. Especially in a doctor office or hospital. What's there to fear in those, to catch a cold? Afraid a gun won't help much as you can't shoot diseases. And for all the guy knows, the person in front of him could be anyone.

Edited September 3, 20178 yr by Hystery

2 minutes ago, Hystery said:

 

That's nice and all to have stats, but that's irrelevant to what I'm saying. You go to the doctor, you don't need your gun, cop or not. You're in plain cloth, you're off-duty. Therefore the owner has all rights to ask why there's a gun at your belt and to ask for a badge and ID. Especially in a doctor office or hospital. What's there to fear in those, to catch a cold? Afraid a gun won't help much as you can't shoot diseases. And for all the guy knows, the person in front of him could be anyone.

Again, that is false. Officers are always on duty even when not in uniform. The same way military are representing their respective branch and the armed forces when in civilian clothes, law enforcement are (expected) to be ready to assist when off duty as well. I'm not pulling that out of my ass, that's what I've been told by officers, otherwise I wouldn't be saying it. That's why they're allowed to carry their weapons off duty and their restrictions aren't as strict as regular citizens. 

 

Hate to break it to you, but a doctors office can be shot up or bombed just as any other venue. Sure the owner has the right to know who and what comes into their property, but it wouldn't be very wise to ask the police to leave just because a few insecure patients feel nervous. Welcome to the real world and welcome to the US. We have guns and so do our police, time to accept that or move to Canada. Even if it's anyone, boo-hoo. If the business hasn't asked them to leave, they have every right to carry their weapon whether you're comfortable or not. You being comfortable is irrelevant. I will carry whether you feel safe or not because I'm carrying for myself and my family. And if it comes down to it, for you too whether you like it or not. 

3 minutes ago, TheDivineHustle said:

Again, that is false. Officers are always on duty even when not in uniform. The same way military are representing their respective branch and the armed forces when in civilian clothes, law enforcement are (expected) to be ready to assist when off duty as well. I'm not pulling that out of my ass, that's what I've been told by officers, otherwise I wouldn't be saying it. That's why they're allowed to carry their weapons off duty and their restrictions aren't as strict as regular citizens. 

 

You're discussing semantics there. You perfectly know what I mean by off-duty. There's a difference between being ACTIVELY on-duty, where you're in uniform and directly answer to dispatch calls, and being off-duty where you're just in plain clothes and live your life of human being. Sure, if needed, you can be called back in even if it's out of your shift hours, but otherwise you're off-duty, you don't answer to dispatch and you do your own things. And during those times, you don't need your weapon in a doctor's office or a hospital, because there's nothing to be afraid of in those. Unless you're afraid of needles or hypochondriac, but again, a gun won't help in those cases.

 

10 minutes ago, TheDivineHustle said:

Hate to break it to you, but a doctors office can be shot up or bombed just as any other venue. Sure the owner has the right to know who and what comes into their property, but it wouldn't be very wise to ask the police to leave just because a few insecure patients feel nervous. 

 

Is that your way of life though? To always expect the worst that can happen, so you have to be prepared to anything? By following this way of life, everyone should wear bullerproof vests, because you never know when you can be shot, everyone should drive tanks, because you never know when you might have a car accident, everyone should have a bunker, because you never know when a thermo-nuclear war might be unleashed upon us. Always fearing that something might happen, anything, anywhere.That's toxic for anyone's well-being, and ridiculous in its logic.

 

16 minutes ago, TheDivineHustle said:

Welcome to the real world and welcome to the US. We have guns and so do our police, time to accept that or move to Canada. Even if it's anyone, boo-hoo. If the business hasn't asked them to leave, they have every right to carry their weapon whether you're comfortable or not. You being comfortable is irrelevant. I will carry whether you feel safe or not because I'm carrying for myself and my family. And if it comes down to it, for you too whether you like it or not. 

 

I'm perfectly aware you've guns and so do your police (even though almost every police around the globe carry guns, so that's kinda irrelevant). Also, never said anything about someone being uncomfortable. All I said was that the owner of the doctor's office or the hospital's staff has every right to ask the badge and ID of someone carrying a weapon, just like they have every right to ask them to leave their weapon somewhere else for the time they are in, because you've absolutely no reason to have a gun when walking into whether of those places. Now if you indeed have stats that prove doctor's offices and hospitals are places where there's frequently shootings and terrorist bombings, I'll gladly admit you absolutely need your gun when you go to your doctor or the nearest hospital, though I'm gonna be honest and say that I already know they aren't, therefore there's no gun needed, because you and your family are perfectly safe in those.

10 hours ago, LukeR said:

The sheriff never said.  He just apologized for the deputies actions and said he would handle it and it won't happen again.

 

Yes it is my discretion to allow officers in plain clothes to carry their firearm or not.  What I'm saying is though since we have a good relationship with them we usually don't say anything about it as long as they have their badge visible.  Now we do ask to see their badge when they walk in because we can't read what it says on it.  For all we know that badge could say security on it and no one is allowed to have a firearm except us and law enforcement in or on our property.  We also has the officer to keep his badge visible if they are in plain clothes because otherwise we will get calls asking why someone is walking around with a gun.  It causes to many issues.  So we will usually politely ask them to keep their gun in their car.  Yes I know who they are but no one else does and it can make patients, visitors, and staff feel on edge.

What I'm getting at is it really just depends on the situation.  What I meant by the "they shouldn't wear a gun if they are in plain clothes" was like I said above "it puts staff, visitors, and patients on on edge." Or may make them feel uncomfortable is all.  That's all I meant by that.  Even though I know they are law enforcement others don't.  They may only see that gun and no badge.  

 

It also depends on the situation.  For example if they are wearing a gun and no badge visible I'll always ask to see ID.  Then if they show it I'll either ask why they are hear or ask them to keep it visible.  If they say they are here to see a friend or family member I'll usually ask them to leave their firearm in the car because theirs no point for them to carry it.  It's not like they are gonna need to shoot someone once they get up there.  Now if they are here for like an inmate or something to do some blood work for the jail then yeah that's perfectly fine.  The showing of the badge at all times though still applies.  We still ask them to keep their badge visible. 

 

Alright, maybe my blondeness is showing, but when you said plain clothed, I assumed you mean plain clothed DETECTIVE  or plain clothed, on duty officer.  I didn't know you meant OFF DUTY.  In every instance I have ever heard an officer referred to as plain clothed it has meant either detective, or plain clothed for a sting / shakedown.

5 hours ago, Hystery said:

 

You're discussing semantics there. You perfectly know what I mean by off-duty. There's a difference between being ACTIVELY on-duty, where you're in uniform and directly answer to dispatch calls, and being off-duty where you're just in plain clothes and live your life of human being. Sure, if needed, you can be called back in even if it's out of your shift hours, but otherwise you're off-duty, you don't answer to dispatch and you do your own things. And during those times, you don't need your weapon in a doctor's office or a hospital, because there's nothing to be afraid of in those. Unless you're afraid of needles or hypochondriac, but again, a gun won't help in those cases.

 

 

Is that your way of life though? To always expect the worst that can happen, so you have to be prepared to anything? By following this way of life, everyone should wear bullerproof vests, because you never know when you can be shot, everyone should drive tanks, because you never know when you might have a car accident, everyone should have a bunker, because you never know when a thermo-nuclear war might be unleashed upon us. Always fearing that something might happen, anything, anywhere.That's toxic for anyone's well-being, and ridiculous in its logic.

 

 

I'm perfectly aware you've guns and so do your police (even though almost every police around the globe carry guns, so that's kinda irrelevant). Also, never said anything about someone being uncomfortable. All I said was that the owner of the doctor's office or the hospital's staff has every right to ask the badge and ID of someone carrying a weapon, just like they have every right to ask them to leave their weapon somewhere else for the time they are in, because you've absolutely no reason to have a gun when walking into whether of those places. Now if you indeed have stats that prove doctor's offices and hospitals are places where there's frequently shootings and terrorist bombings, I'll gladly admit you absolutely need your gun when you go to your doctor or the nearest hospital, though I'm gonna be honest and say that I already know they aren't, therefore there's no gun needed, because you and your family are perfectly safe in those.

At this point, it's not a discussion of facts, but more so an argument of opinions. We can literally go all day like this and we won't ever agree because it's simply a matter of opinion.

 

I'm willing to agree to disagree, simply.

7 hours ago, TheDivineHustle said:

At this point, it's not a discussion of facts, but more so an argument of opinions. We can literally go all day like this and we won't ever agree because it's simply a matter of opinion.

 

I'm willing to agree to disagree, simply.

 

Fair enough :) 

On 9/3/2017 at 10:56 AM, TheDivineHustle said:

So, law enforcement are allowed to carry their firearms into the workplace but you prohibit them from doing so?

No, see my post above.  It is explained in the post you quoted.

On 9/3/2017 at 11:49 AM, Hystery said:

 

If they're in plain clothes they're off-duty. And if they're off-duty, they don't need their firearm, therefore it's normal for someone to not want to see them. Even more so in a doctor office/hospital. They've nothing to fear for their life.

Negative on your last, ghost rider.

On 9/3/2017 at 4:30 PM, Kallus Rourke said:

 

Alright, maybe my blondeness is showing, but when you said plain clothed, I assumed you mean plain clothed DETECTIVE  or plain clothed, on duty officer.  I didn't know you meant OFF DUTY.  In every instance I have ever heard an officer referred to as plain clothed it has meant either detective, or plain clothed for a sting / shakedown.

Lol no not at all.  Haha.  

9 hours ago, TA120 said:

Negative on your last, ghost rider.

 

1/ Your reply doesn't make sense.

2/ Be more accurate.

3/ Provide sources to support your opinion.

 

Thanks!