14 hours ago, TheDivineHustle said:

I have not read the Qu'ran (Koran) myself so I cannot accurately determine whether or not it's true. But I constantly hear mixed results from Historians and religious figures that contradict themselves. Some say that the Quran is a book of peace, and others declare that it's worse than the Bible on the basis of violence, specifically against women. In my opinion, I think that it's based on individual interpretation. But I cannot agree with the statement:

 

  " They are actually not following true islam . It is radical islam not the true form of islam ."

 

In my opinion, I think that they are actually followers of Islam, they just simply carry out the more extreme and violent portions of the Qu'ran. Even though I have not actually sat down and read through the Qu'ran, and I doubt that many others are able to say that they have, you cannot deny the fact that there are violent verses within the book. If the violent verses are not true Islam, then what is? Are we only considering the less violent portions of the book to be the true religion? 

 

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion is all for Allah"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…" (My interpretation of this quote is that those who believe in what Allah commands, including the discrimination against women, should go out and fight in the name of it)

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
 

Even though the website is admittedly right-wing, it doesn't change the fact that these verses are in the Quran, according to some brief research.

 

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx

"They just simply carry out the more extreme and violent portions of the Qu'ran".

 

This maybe so, but i'm pretty sure all religions have pieces in their religious books that have some sort of violence. I hate to start controversy but as i see it, you seem to be biased towards Islam and the Muslim religion. I respect you opinion for the most part, but i do not support the view of Islam being a religion of hate as it is the complete opposite. 

1 hour ago, ThisIsntMyName said:

"They just simply carry out the more extreme and violent portions of the Qu'ran".

 

This maybe so, but i'm pretty sure all religions have pieces in their religious books that have some sort of violence. I hate to start controversy but as i see it, you seem to be biased towards Islam and the Muslim religion. I respect you opinion for the most part, but i do not support the view of Islam being a religion of hate as it is the complete opposite. 

Well of course a good portion of religions do have violence in them, but the subject matter is Islam in today's politics. A comparison of Islam to other religions isn't very significant. 

 

I have nothing against people of the Islamic faith, I just directly disagree with their beliefs. 

Edited February 4, 20179 yr by TheDivineHustle

1 hour ago, TheDivineHustle said:

Well of course a good portion of religions do have violence in them, but the subject matter is Islam in today's politics. A comparison of Islam to other religions isn't very significant. 

 

I have nothing against people of the Islamic faith, I just directly disagree with their beliefs. 

ask any normal muslim and then ask them if they belive in peace or war. Muslims believe in pure peace so  dont know how you can disagree with that. If you think fighting is the best way to do stuff, then so be it but that is not what i think.

1 hour ago, ThisIsntMyName said:

ask any normal muslim and then ask them if they belive in peace or war. Muslims believe in pure peace so  dont know how you can disagree with that. If you think fighting is the best way to do stuff, then so be it but that is not what i think.

 

 

Have you conducted a survey of all Muslims to be able to confirm that they believe in peace? Also, just because they say they believe in peace doesn't mean that they actually do. I'm not trying to sound rude or anything, I'm just a person that believes in evidence and statistics. If there are no definite numbers to back up a claim then I cannot accept it as being fact. There are too many false sources and inaccuracies for me to settle on someone's word alone.

 

Also, what exactly makes a Muslim normal?

Edited February 4, 20179 yr by TheDivineHustle

1 minute ago, TheDivineHustle said:

Have you conducted a survey of all Muslims to be able to confirm that they believe in peace? Also, just because they say they believe in peace doesn't mean that they actually do. I'm not trying to sound rude or anything, I'm just a person that believes in evidence and statistics. If there are no definite numbers to back up a claim then I cannot accept it as being fact. There are too many false sources and inaccuracies for me to settle on someone's word alone.

 

Also, what exactly makes a Muslim normal?

No, i do not have any statistics that is why I said if you wanted to go and do a survey. A normal muslim in my opinion is one that follows the true meaning of Islam....peace.

25 minutes ago, ThisIsntMyName said:

A normal muslim in my opinion is one that follows the true meaning of Islam....peace.

This statement right here is exactly what gets me dumbstruck with terrorism involving Islam.

 

According to you and many others, the true meaning of Islam is peace. In the Quran, there are verses and portions that are a direct contradiction to peace, such as violence against the infidels and discrimination against women. 

 

So my question to you is how do we determine what is true Islam and what is not if all of it is coming directly out of the Quran, assuming you're declaring Islam to be peaceful based on what the Quran says? Do we only look at the peaceful bits of the Quran and ignore the violence and declare that to be Islam? Or do we look at the entire Quran, similarly what we do with Christianity and the bible, and use that as our base to Islam?

 

If we are to look at the entire Quran, then technically speaking the terrorists do follow the true meaning of Islam, because Islam calls for violence and discrimination, as noted by a few of the quotes I've posted previously. If we do not consider the entire Quran to be true Islam, then how do we determine what actually is true Islam?

If it makes the debate any better, here is a 'neutral' view on Islam. 

 

 

9 hours ago, TheDivineHustle said:

This statement right here is exactly what gets me dumbstruck with terrorism involving Islam.

 

According to you and many others, the true meaning of Islam is peace. In the Quran, there are verses and portions that are a direct contradiction to peace, such as violence against the infidels and discrimination against women. 

 

So my question to you is how do we determine what is true Islam and what is not if all of it is coming directly out of the Quran, assuming you're declaring Islam to be peaceful based on what the Quran says? Do we only look at the peaceful bits of the Quran and ignore the violence and declare that to be Islam? Or do we look at the entire Quran, similarly what we do with Christianity and the bible, and use that as our base to Islam?

 

If we are to look at the entire Quran, then technically speaking the terrorists do follow the true meaning of Islam, because Islam calls for violence and discrimination, as noted by a few of the quotes I've posted previously. If we do not consider the entire Quran to be true Islam, then how do we determine what actually is true Islam?

Terrorists take the radical parts of the book and disregard the good pieces. We determine what true Islam is based on what is the main theme and what is practiced. last time i checked i didnt know people kneeling and praising the lord was the same as killing dozens of people. 

 

Quote

In the Quran, there are verses and portions that are a direct contradiction to peace, such as violence against the infidels and discrimination against women

Are you stating that we don't do the same with other religions such as Christianity? In the bible there are plenty of verses that are clearly calling upon violence. Here are some examples:

 

Deuteronomy 20:17 You must utterly destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you

Deuteronomy 3:3 So the Lord our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors

2:34 At that time we took all his cities and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors.

20:16 In the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

25:17 “Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,

31:3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them.

31:15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them.

31:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,

 

 

Based on info found here: "The Arabic word Islam implies the attainment of peace through submission to Allah".

Edited February 5, 20179 yr by ThisIsntMyName

9 hours ago, TheDivineHustle said:

This statement right here is exactly what gets me dumbstruck with terrorism involving Islam.

 

According to you and many others, the true meaning of Islam is peace. In the Quran, there are verses and portions that are a direct contradiction to peace, such as violence against the infidels and discrimination against women. 

 

So my question to you is how do we determine what is true Islam and what is not if all of it is coming directly out of the Quran, assuming you're declaring Islam to be peaceful based on what the Quran says? Do we only look at the peaceful bits of the Quran and ignore the violence and declare that to be Islam? Or do we look at the entire Quran, similarly what we do with Christianity and the bible, and use that as our base to Islam?

 

If we are to look at the entire Quran, then technically speaking the terrorists do follow the true meaning of Islam, because Islam calls for violence and discrimination, as noted by a few of the quotes I've posted previously. If we do not consider the entire Quran to be true Islam, then how do we determine what actually is true Islam?

 

Shouldn't true Islam be determined by worship to their god/etc and being kind to one another?  Technically, all religions are the same in that they do worship someone and do come together as one.  That is one thing I can say religion is good for.  Good or bad, it does bring people together and give them something on a personal level.  Here's the thing I don't get.  Now, I'm not religious, and don't know jack diddly about Islam, but isn't there something in the Quaran about respecting each other and getting along?  It's hard to imagine any religion out there that wouldn't focus on getting people together to be friendly.

 

Frankly, I believe radicals use religion as an excuse to commit crimes.  I read fanfictions every day that depict violence.  You don't see me going out and hurting people praising to it.  OKAY, OKAY, I get it, there is a difference between religion and a fanfic, but you get my point.  We are still human beings who know right from wrong.  How can anyone allow religion to help determine if they are going to hate, torture, or kill someone?

 

My point is, if you're right and the entire Quaran calls for violence and discrimination, how can anyone follow this and think it's okay? 

 

10 hours ago, ThisIsntMyName said:

Terrorists take the radical parts of the book and disregard the good pieces. We determine what true Islam is based on what is the main theme and what is practiced. last time i checked i didnt know people kneeling and praising the lord was the same as killing dozens of people. 

 

Are you stating that we don't do the same with other religions such as Christianity? In the bible there are plenty of verses that are clearly calling upon violence. Here are some examples:

 

Deuteronomy 20:17 You must utterly destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you

Deuteronomy 3:3 So the Lord our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors

2:34 At that time we took all his cities and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors.

20:16 In the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

25:17 “Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,

31:3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them.

31:15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them.

31:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,

 

 

Based on info found here: "The Arabic word Islam implies the attainment of peace through submission to Allah".

I know several Muslims that would disagree with that entirely. They would say that the entire Quran is true Islam, even the violent parts, they simply don't practice it in the United States. You cannot just take the good parts and what is practiced and disregard everything else as not actually being Islam. It's literally written directly into their holy book so it is true Islam, even if Muslims don't follow it. Their religion calls for submission to Allah, and slaying those that refuse to kneel and accept Allah. Terrorists aren't just making this up. They're carrying out true Islam, and it's not a peaceful religion at all. It's probably worse than Christianity in terms of violence. 

 

9 hours ago, Arariel said:

 

Shouldn't true Islam be determined by worship to their god/etc and being kind to one another?  Technically, all religions are the same in that they do worship someone and do come together as one.  That is one thing I can say religion is good for.  Good or bad, it does bring people together and give them something on a personal level.  Here's the thing I don't get.  Now, I'm not religious, and don't know jack diddly about Islam, but isn't there something in the Quaran about respecting each other and getting along?  It's hard to imagine any religion out there that wouldn't focus on getting people together to be friendly.

 

Frankly, I believe radicals use religion as an excuse to commit crimes.  I read fanfictions every day that depict violence.  You don't see me going out and hurting people praising to it.  OKAY, OKAY, I get it, there is a difference between religion and a fanfic, but you get my point.  We are still human beings who know right from wrong.  How can anyone allow religion to help determine if they are going to hate, torture, or kill someone?

 

My point is, if you're right and the entire Quaran calls for violence and discrimination, how can anyone follow this and think it's okay? 

 

My question is still how we determine what is true Islam and what is not true Islam if all of it is coming out of their holy book? I don't think it is logical for us to choose select portions of the Quran that sound nice and declare only those verses to be Islam, and then we just ignore the horrible verses as though they don't exist. If we are going to accept the good then we must also accept the bad, and both ends make up true Islam. 

 

Based on the few passages and verses of the Quran that I have read and the Hadiths, the main purpose of the religion is to bring all people to kneel before Allah under Sharia Law. I assume this is why they're required to pray multiple times a day. If you conduct the research, there was actually a poll. A vast majority of Muslims in Muslim Majority countries stated that they support Sharia Law in being the law of the land. That's the difference between Islam and Christianity. Christianity calls for everyone to come together under God, in the Old Testament to stone those that worship false Gods and do evil, and in the New Testament to follow the path of Jesus Christ, which is helping your fellow man and doing good for others. A good portion of U.S. law is based on Christian morals and values. Do not kill. Do not steal. Do not commit adultery (which is illegal in some states, yes). I am not sure if Islam has similar commandments. 

 

Islam does not call for doing good, it calls for all to come together and kneel before Allah.

 

I could be wrong on this but based on what I've read, that's the interpretation I've gained from Islam. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

Edited February 5, 20179 yr by TheDivineHustle

1 hour ago, TheDivineHustle said:

I know several Muslims that would disagree with that entirely. They would say that the entire Quran is true Islam, even the violent parts, they simply don't practice it in the United States. You cannot just take the good parts and what is practiced and disregard everything else as not actually being Islam. It's literally written directly into their holy book so it is true Islam, even if Muslims don't follow it. Their religion calls for submission to Allah, and slaying those that refuse to kneel and accept Allah. Terrorists aren't just making this up. They're carrying out true Islam, and it's not a peaceful religion at all. It's probably worse than Christianity in terms of violence. 

 

My question is still how we determine what is true Islam and what is not true Islam if all of it is coming out of their holy book? I don't think it is logical for us to choose select portions of the Quran that sound nice and declare only those verses to be Islam, and then we just ignore the horrible verses as though they don't exist. If we are going to accept the good then we must also accept the bad, and both ends make up true Islam. 

 

Based on the few passages and verses of the Quran that I have read and the Hadiths, the main purpose of the religion is to bring all people to kneel before Allah under Sharia Law. I assume this is why they're required to pray multiple times a day. If you conduct the research, there was actually a poll. A vast majority of Muslims in Muslim Majority countries stated that they support Sharia Law in being the law of the land. That's the difference between Islam and Christianity. Christianity calls for everyone to come together under God, in the Old Testament to stone those that worship false Gods and do evil, and in the New Testament to follow the path of Jesus Christ, which is helping your fellow man and doing good for others. A good portion of U.S. law is based on Christian morals and values. Do not kill. Do not steal. Do not commit adultery (which is illegal in some states, yes). I am not sure if Islam has similar commandments. 

 

Islam does not call for doing good, it calls for all to come together and kneel before Allah.

 

I could be wrong on this but based on what I've read, that's the interpretation I've gained from Islam. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

 

 

Quote

Terrorists aren't just making this up. They're carrying out true Islam, and it's not a peaceful religion at all. It's probably worse than Christianity in terms of violence. 

I didn't want to turn this into a heated argument but when you go so far as to say that true Islam in killing innocent people because they don't agree with what you believe,  is just simply ignorant and completely repulsive.

Edited February 5, 20179 yr by ThisIsntMyName

55 minutes ago, ThisIsntMyName said:

 

 

I didn't want to turn this into a heated argument but when you go so far as to say that true Islam in killing innocent people because they don't agree with what you believe,  is just simply ignorant and completely repulsive.

Claiming that true Islam is only the peaceful portion of the Quran is ignorant. I'm literally basing my argument off of what's directly written in the Quran, which is what Muslims follow pretty much to the teeth worldwide. 

5 hours ago, TheDivineHustle said:

I know several Muslims that would disagree with that entirely. They would say that the entire Quran is true Islam, even the violent parts, they simply don't practice it in the United States. You cannot just take the good parts and what is practiced and disregard everything else as not actually being Islam. It's literally written directly into their holy book so it is true Islam, even if Muslims don't follow it. Their religion calls for submission to Allah, and slaying those that refuse to kneel and accept Allah. Terrorists aren't just making this up. They're carrying out true Islam, and it's not a peaceful religion at all. It's probably worse than Christianity in terms of violence. 

 

My question is still how we determine what is true Islam and what is not true Islam if all of it is coming out of their holy book? I don't think it is logical for us to choose select portions of the Quran that sound nice and declare only those verses to be Islam, and then we just ignore the horrible verses as though they don't exist. If we are going to accept the good then we must also accept the bad, and both ends make up true Islam. 

 

Based on the few passages and verses of the Quran that I have read and the Hadiths, the main purpose of the religion is to bring all people to kneel before Allah under Sharia Law. I assume this is why they're required to pray multiple times a day. If you conduct the research, there was actually a poll. A vast majority of Muslims in Muslim Majority countries stated that they support Sharia Law in being the law of the land. That's the difference between Islam and Christianity. Christianity calls for everyone to come together under God, in the Old Testament to stone those that worship false Gods and do evil, and in the New Testament to follow the path of Jesus Christ, which is helping your fellow man and doing good for others. A good portion of U.S. law is based on Christian morals and values. Do not kill. Do not steal. Do not commit adultery (which is illegal in some states, yes). I am not sure if Islam has similar commandments. 

 

Islam does not call for doing good, it calls for all to come together and kneel before Allah.

 

I could be wrong on this but based on what I've read, that's the interpretation I've gained from Islam. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

 

Unless God/Allah/etc came back and said THEMSELVES what true Islam/Christianity/etc was, it's all speculation. These separate religions should all have one meaning, one definition, but they don't.  Each religious person will intemperate it in their own way.   Again, for a lot of these people, they use religion as an excuse, justification for violence. However, the people that believe wholeheartedly in their religion will define it in a way that suits their needs, which is what homphobic religious people do.  They forget about the part that calls for loving each other and instead focus on "God said man and woman."  People pick and choose which parts of religion to adhere to, with no clear definition of what their religion actually condones or doesn't.

 

Until we actually hear a definitive definition from the makers themselves,  pure speculation and personal take on what their respected religion actually calls for.

 

Islam does not call for doing good, it calls for all to come together and kneel before Allah.

 

Proves my point. Islam may have some some negative points, but it calls to come together and kneel.  The exact opposite of what a lot of them do. Or, they do kneel, but they don't come together.

2 hours ago, Arariel said:

 

Unless God/Allah/etc came back and said THEMSELVES what true Islam/Christianity/etc was, it's all speculation. These separate religions should all have one meaning, one definition, but they don't.  Each religious person will intemperate it in their own way.   Again, for a lot of these people, they use religion as an excuse, justification for violence. However, the people that believe wholeheartedly in their religion will define it in a way that suits their needs, which is what homphobic religious people do.  They forget about the part that calls for loving each other and instead focus on "God said man and woman."  People pick and choose which parts of religion to adhere to, with no clear definition of what their religion actually condones or doesn't.

 

Until we actually hear a definitive definition from the makers themselves,  pure speculation and personal take on what their respected religion actually calls for.

 

 

 

 

Proves my point. Islam may have some some negative points, but it calls to come together and kneel.  The exact opposite of what a lot of them do. Or, they do kneel, but they don't come together.

 

 

So it goes both ways then. If we can't declare the violent portions of Islam to be true Islam, then we can't declare the peaceful portions to be true Islam either. There are followers of Islam that carry out both ends of the religion, so who's actually the true follower of Islam? The terrorist blowing up the non-believers as commanded? Or the young lady trying to get an education in college and disagrees with the terrorism? It can't be a matter of individual interpretation if it's literally written word for word directly into the very holy book that they follow to letter. If "true Islam" is Muslims that follow the Quran, then the terrorists would be the true representation of Islam and what it represents. Because they follow the Quran nearly word for word, based on what I've read. If true Islam is those Muslims that do not follow the Qurans directives, then aren't they technically not true Muslims since they would be disobeying their holy book? If they are only disobeying certain parts of the holy book, then how do they determine what is accurate and what is incorrect? Islam commands its followers to obey Allah and the messenger, Muhammed. Muhammed followed the Quran, so it would only make sense for Muslims to follow the Quran as well.

 

I don't understand the thought process behind being Muslim and not following the Quran, which is the holy book of the religion that Allah commands them to follow.

Edited February 5, 20179 yr by TheDivineHustle

7 hours ago, TheDivineHustle said:

Claiming that true Islam is only the peaceful portion of the Quran is ignorant. I'm literally basing my argument off of what's directly written in the Quran, which is what Muslims follow pretty much to the teeth worldwide. 

if they followed what you say is Islam, then muslims would be killing anything they see.

1 hour ago, ThisIsntMyName said:

if they followed what you say is Islam, then muslims would be killing anything they see.

That is correct.

Just now, TheDivineHustle said:

That is correct.

and is that happening....

1 minute ago, ThisIsntMyName said:

and is that happening....

Indeed it is.

1 minute ago, TheDivineHustle said:

Indeed it is.

so every muslim is shooting other people?

Edited February 6, 20179 yr by ThisIsntMyName

9 minutes ago, ThisIsntMyName said:

so every muslim is shooting other people?

Not every Muslim but they're always in the headlines of terrorism and slaughter.