3 minutes ago, SuperPyroManiac said:

 

10/10 for the commit messages 😜😂

44 minutes ago, SuperPyroManiac said:

I have error handling, on the very event where this crash happened. It is not a save all solution. GTA is just fun like that.

 

It certainly isn't the be all to end all solution however, ultimately something was causing your plugin to crash - that's why reports are so useful.
I'm glad you managed to fix it so quickly.

 

This whole thing has drifted.

My point is that you should make it clear when telling people to objectively remove plugins (that cause issues) that they aren't actually causing their crash in the log.

 

If you don't have the "time" to say "You should report this to the developer" (literally - that's all that any developer asks for) the real question is do you have time to provide good support at all?

 

Edited June 10, 20223 yr by Charlie686

19 minutes ago, Charlie686 said:

This whole thing has drifted.

My point is that you should make it clear when telling people to objectively remove plugins (that cause issues) that they aren't actually causing their crash in the log.

 

If you don't have the "time" to say "You should report this to the developer" (literally - that's all that any developer asks for) the real question is do you have time to provide good support at all?

 

k

31 minutes ago, thatmaxplayle said:

 

That is a very naive and quite frankly lazy way of doing things. I would even argue that it isn’t proper support. Either way, the fact of the matter is, you should be advising people to report matters to developers. That quite honestly is the best way to make the experience better for everyone. I’m not going to argue with you because you think that just deleting anything that appears in a log fixes issues - but I would advise you to reflect on the way you do things, hopefully integrating some better practices in the future.

 

Anyways, I best get to fixing all those bugs I don’t know about with (no) thanks to lazy “support representatives.”

 

Enjoy your day. 

I am obviously not just telling people to remove a plugin the second it causes a crash. I always try to find solutions but for some plugins for one reason or another (whether bad coding practice or incompatibility with a large amount of other popular plugins) it is the correct thing to tell the user to remove it.

I respond to dozens of people a day (mostly not on this site) most of which can barely understand how to upload their log. So I am not being hyperbolic in anyway when I say that I don't have the time or energy to direct and explain to people how to report issues for buggy plugins. I understand this is a personal issue for you - after all we are talking about your plugin. But resorting to name calling it uncalled for. I am simply stating as a matter of fact that your plugin causes issues. Enough issues that over the past few months I have come to the conclusion that it is currently better for people to remove it (I am not the only one in this community that feels this way however I can only speak for myself). 

24 minutes ago, Mrsuperx13 said:

k

I am obviously not just telling people to remove a plugin the second it causes a crash. I always try to find solutions but for some plugins for one reason or another (whether bad coding practice or incompatibility with a large amount of other popular plugins) it is the correct thing to tell the user to remove it.

I respond to dozens of people a day (mostly not on this site) most of which can barely understand how to upload their log. So I am not being hyperbolic in anyway when I say that I don't have the time or energy to direct and explain to people how to report issues for buggy plugins. I understand this is a personal issue for you - after all we are talking about your plugin. But resorting to name calling it uncalled for. I am simply stating as a matter of fact that your plugin causes issues. Enough issues that over the past few months I have come to the conclusion that it is currently better for people to remove it (I am not the only one in this community that feels this way however I can only speak for myself). 

 

I really do hope one day you realize why what you are doing isn't the best way of doing things. Ultimately, this isn't personal. Whether this is my plugin - or another one - there is no better way to help everyone than to report issues relating to a plugin to its developer. It's a simple fact of software development, and it's one you're choosing to ignore.

 

I would definitely argue that it is easier to ask someone to contact the developer, or their team, for specialized support if you think there is a bug in a plugin, than it is to spend time troubleshooting code you don't have access to - let alone just being silly about things and immediately asking them to delete something. Think about how many people you are indirectly giving support to, by preventing issues from arising in the future? I'm not trying to be an asshole about this, but what I am saying does make sense.

 

That one time that you ask somebody to report something, and they do - will fix an issue with that plugin. You will then never encounter someone with that issue again, or if you do - all you have to tell them to do is update!

 

Good relations between developers and players, matters - and is the way to secure the best experience for everyone. I think you know this, deep down - but I am most likely correct in saying you won't admit it. 

 

Anyhow, that's that. To avoid derailing this thread anymore than it has been, I politely ask that you direct any further replies to my inbox on the site.

Kind regards,

Max

Edited June 11, 20223 yr by thatmaxplayle

Just now, thatmaxplayle said:

Anyhow, that's that. To avoid derailing this thread anymore than it has been, I politely ask that you direct any further replies to my inbox on the site.

Kind regards,

Max

While I understand you don't want to derail the thread - the horse has already left the barn and I would prefer any further discussion happens either in public or not at all.
 

1 minute ago, thatmaxplayle said:

 

I really do hope one day you realize why what you are doing isn't the best way of doing things. Ultimately, this isn't personal. Whether this is my plugin - or another one - there is no better way to help everyone than to report issues relating to a plugin to its developer. It's a simple fact of software development, and it's one you're choosing to ignore.

 

I would definitely argue that it is easier to ask someone to contact the developer, or their team, for specialized support if you think there is a bug in a plugin. Think about how many people you are indirectly giving support to, by preventing issues from arising in the future? I'm not trying to be an asshole about this, but what I am saying does make sense.

 

That one time that you ask somebody to report something, and they do - will fix an issue with that plugin. You will then never encounter someone with that issue again, or if you do - all you have to tell them to do is update!

 

Good relations between developers and players, matters - and is the way to secure the best experience for everyone. I think you know this, deep down - but I am most likely correct in saying you won't admit it. 

I am not in any way dismissing the concept of bug reporting. I am saying that you are failing to understand what it's actually like giving support. Most of my time is spent explaining to people how to do even the most basic of things like uploading a log or even how to take a screenshot. These things take time - a lot of time. so I have to be efficient. I am trying to help everyone and one of those ways is prophylactically, so when I see a user with a large amount of outdated and issue causing plugins - I feel absolutely no regret telling them to remove them. 

6 minutes ago, Mrsuperx13 said:

While I understand you don't want to derail the thread - the horse has already left the barn and I would prefer any further discussion happens either in public or not at all.
 

I am not in any way dismissing the concept of bug reporting. I am saying that you are failing to understand what it's actually like giving support. Most of my time is spent explaining to people how to do even the most basic of things like uploading a log or even how to take a screenshot. These things take time - a lot of time. so I have to be efficient. I am trying to help everyone and one of those ways is prophylactically, so when I see a user with a large amount of outdated and issue causing plugins - I feel absolutely no regret telling them to remove them. 

 

My friend, trust me, I've given more than enough support in my time within this community (like yourself, mainly off-site) to understand what it's like helping people who just cannot be helped. I know where you're coming from in that regard.

 

I see in your site signature, you have a link to the ULSS Discord Server. I know for a fact (as I am one of them) a lot of the developers of well-known plugins, possibly with a few exceptions, are in this server. It is, after all, one of the more well known ones. Could you not just give a simple @mention to the developer of the plugin causing issues? I know I wouldn't be at all irritated with support reps offering assistance for my plugin, so long as issues were reported to me.

 

Think about how much of an immersive experience this community could be offered, if support representatives in well-known support offering communities were to work with developers, indirectly even, to better the work they produce. I know for a fact that players in this community would certainly appreciate it.

 

For instance, personally, if you encounter issues with my plugin - in ULSS, feel free to give me a ping. My username on Discord is @thatmaxplayle#8811 (just as it is here).

 

Developers will admit that the pings can be frustrating, of course -- but the more work they put into fixing bugs and other issues reported via these pings, the less pings they'll wind up getting in the future. 

 

I'm just trying to offer basic solutions which take very little time to implement. The vastttt majority of plugins will implement some sort of logging at startup giving information about who the developer is. It's quite a common convention in all software, let alone LSPDFR plugins.

 

My only reasoning for the request of moving into direct messaging, is the red warning notice quite clearly displayed above the reply box - and was only in the interest of complying with the site rules. LCPDFR.com moderators can view direct messages in the event of an issue, if that was your concern. 

 

Edited June 11, 20223 yr by thatmaxplayle

9 minutes ago, thatmaxplayle said:

 

My friend, trust me, I've given more than enough support in my time within this community (like yourself, mainly off-site) to understand what it's like helping people who just cannot be helped. I know where you're coming from in that regard.

 

I see in your site signature, you have a link to the ULSS Discord Server. I know for a fact (as I am one of them) a lot of the developers of well-known plugins, possibly with a few exceptions, are in this server. It is, after all, one of the more well known ones. Could you not just give a simple @mention to the developer of the plugin causing issues? I know I wouldn't be at all irritated with support reps offering assistance for my plugin, so long as issues were reported to me.

 

Think about how much of an immersive experience this community could be offered, if support representatives in well-known support offering communities were to work with developers, indirectly even, to better the work they produce. I know for a fact that players in this community would certainly appreciate it.

 

For instance, personally, if you encounter issues with my plugin - in ULSS, feel free to give me a ping. My username on Discord is @thatmaxplayle#8811 (just as it is here).

 

Developers will admit that the pings can be frustrating, of course -- but the more work they put into fixing bugs and other issues reported via these pings, the less pings they'll wind up getting in the future. 

 

I'm just trying to offer basic solutions which take very little time to implement. The vastttt majority of plugins will implement some sort of logging at startup giving information about who the developer is. It's quite a common convention in all software, let alone LSPDFR plugins.

 

In the future I will try and ping you if I see specific crashes related to your plugin. It is possible that your plugin is in a lot better state then when I added it to my list a few months ago and I would be happy to remove it now and see if issues pop up again.

I think you can understand I am trying to help users. It does not matter to me the plugin or the developer my main objective when I help people is to allow them to enjoy the game I have enjoyed for the past 10 years. If that meant at that time telling them to remove your plugin, then I said so with no guilt. As I said I would be happy to stop doing so temporarily to see if the state of your plugin has changed since I put it on my list - but I will not apologize for doing it in the first place as it was the right thing to do then as my first and foremost responsibility is to ensure the user I am helping will be able to play and enjoy their game with the minimalist of interruption.

Edited June 11, 20223 yr by Mrsuperx13

4 minutes ago, Mrsuperx13 said:

I will try and ping you if I see specific crashes related to your plugin. It is possible that your plugin is in a lot better state then when I added it to my list a few months ago and I would be happy to remove it now and see if issues pop up again.

I think you can understand I am trying to help users it does not matter to me the plugin or the developer my main objective when I help people is to allow them to enjoy the game I have enjoyed for the past 10 years. If that meant at that time telling them to remove your plugin, then I said so with no guilt. As I said I would be happy to stop doing so temporarily to see if the state of your plugin has changed since I put it on my list - but I will not apologize for doing it in the first place as it was the right thing to do then as my first and foremost responsibility is to ensure the user I am helping will be able to play and enjoy their game with the minimalist of interruption.

 

I appreciate you being supportive of my point, here. Again, it's not a personal matter asuch, but I can only suggest things that could potentially make the experience better for everyone. I can assure you, if my plugin were added in the times of Section136Callouts - Ambient Events, then I can say I definitely don't blame you - that was not my proudest move, and although I couldn't reproduce any of the hard crashing that was reported to me, I for sure know it was causing issues. That "functionality" has since proudly been removed. 

 

I do understand your perspective on this - and am glad there are people to guide inexperienced users on 'fixing crashes'. Again, I'm sure our opinions differ on whether removing a plugin is actually fixing anything (rather than just suppressing the problem) but with that said, I am glad we could find some middle ground on the matter.

Edited June 11, 20223 yr by thatmaxplayle

For me this entire conversation is nonsensical.

 

Even if 9/10 people who you simply say "report this to the developer" don't bother, 1/10 people can report a bug. And just one report can stop thousands of users facing issues.

Bug reporting is how you truly help user's experience more stable gameplay.

Even if @thatmaxplayle must lose his ambient events despite all the hours gone into trying to make them work. 😂

1 minute ago, Charlie686 said:

For me this entire conversation is nonsensical.

 

Even if 9/10 people who you simply say "report this to the developer" don't bother, 1/10 people can report a bug. And just one report can stop thousands of users facing issues.

Bug reporting is how you truly help user's experience more stable gameplay.

Even if @thatmaxplayle must lose his ambient events despite all the hours gone into trying to make them work. 😂

 

Charlie, you know how many hours I spent trying to get those to work. Those were painful times. I learned many lessons from them, haha 😂

 

To be fair, I do still blame RAGE (not RPH, the actual engine itself) for a lot of those issues. The engine wasn't designed to do a lot of what I was trying to get it to do, so that I guess was part of the problem.

Edited June 11, 20223 yr by thatmaxplayle

3 minutes ago, thatmaxplayle said:

To be fair, I do still blame RAGE (not RPH, the actual engine itself) for a lot of those issues. The engine wasn't designed to do a lot of what I was trying to get it to do, so that I guess was part of the problem.

Oh of course you do! 😂Only kidding.

 

I think we should both go to sleep (in your new apt.841 🤣) and hand this thread over to NRS who god forbid isn't overwhelmed with the notifications.

As you rightfully said, I am glad some middle ground was met & the conversation remained constructive.

th what happened here?

 

but looks like everything is back to normal by now. at least there hasn't been a problem for the last three hours

3 hours ago, NRS said:

th what happened here?

 

but looks like everything is back to normal by now. at least there hasn't been a problem for the last three hours

Weird online drama stuff. Anywho the issue you posted was related to my plugin Deadly Weapons. Looks like a1 time type issue but I have since fixed it so that it will never happen again even if it's rare. Ill probably update the plugin near the end of the month with some more bug fixes i've collected.